12 valve cummins switchover time

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MissoulaSVO's picture
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Joined: 02/01/2007

Hi folks -
I'm sure this has been asked before, but I'm not getting much luck with searching the forum.  What do you folks with 12 v cummins trucks have for switchover times?  I have a 98 12 valve, and it's time to convert it.  I have a 30 mile commute, and it seems like it's usually 8-10 miles before it's up to operating temperature.  I switch my 300D over as soon as the coolant is up to its normal operating temperature. 
The kit will really pay off for the longer trips, obviously, but I want to make sure I do get a gallon or two of fuel savings every commute as well.
Thanks.
 

pquevill's picture
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Joined: 06/25/2005

Where are you located? I'm taking by your signature you may be in Montanna? 8-10 miles is probably a pretty good average for a 12v. Use winter front during winters will help. My 24v-2000 is cold blooded, but will heat up fairly quickly in that time frame. on a highway at 0 degrees then it will push to 15-20 miles. My stepson has been driving it in the same commutting length and he burns more VO than diesel. Summer time it will be faster. My HPCR will switch in 3-4 miles summer and 8 miles in MN winters, but comepletely different setup with them.
Q

Billy's picture
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Joined: 08/11/2009

The 8-10 mile warm up is pretty consistent with what I'm getting with my truck. I run a grille cover in the winte that seems to help. With the stock thermostat I would only get coolant temps around 165. A couple months ago I tried another superstat from napa and it seems to be working a lot better. I see coolant temps around 180 and veg temps around 170-175. Whenever I switch over to veg it takes awhile for the temp to rise to 170 but the engine never falters.

veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

My HPCR will switch in 3-4 miles in summer and 8 miles in winter
I have similar numbers and I switchover at 150F coolant temp, not at operating temp 190F.
I would rather consider the diesel usage per day than the distance of commute. For a regular day there will be two COLD starts plus at least two purges (assuming a little shopping once for a while). I do a 120 seconds purge before shutdown since I have an extra filter before the CP3 pump. Those are the moments I burn most of my diesel.
So my average daily diesel usage in summer is 0.8-1 gallons and in winter is 1.5 gallons. That's my basic diesel consumption.
After that the savings in running veggie will depends on how far you go after switching over to veggie.
My average daily commute is 50 miles.

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'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

MissoulaSVO's picture
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Joined: 02/01/2007

Yup, Missoula, Montana. Which is actually a rather warm part of the state, although we do get some cold weather every winter. 
Thanks for all the advice.  Especially useful is the diesel consumption stats. I have that figured out on my 300D - I burn 1 gallon of diesel per commute - two starts, two purges.  So, it seems that when it's warm out, my truck shouldn't be much worse.  Which is really good news.  
I can definitely do some grill coverings, and would even consider a pump-assisted coolant heater to really warm things up in the winter. And who knows, maybe the next place I live will have a heated garage.  
Going to sell the car with the GC soon, and use the money to buy a kit for the truck.  Or, I might sell just the car and buy individual parts and upgrade the car kit to work in the truck.  I think that could be done, too.  
Thanks!
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

Hello my friend!
 
I hope your winter is not too bad.
 
Our  winter  has been very good  up here in the northeast so far.
 
Mad Max usually takes about 10-15 miles before I switch to wvo in the winter.
 
I have grille deletes for the winter months.  
 
Its just the nature of the beast called Cummins.
 
You could experiment with a small interchangable tank for your daily commutes and a larger tank for your long hauls.
 
The small tank could have a blend in order to switch sooner because the fuel will flow better.
 
I feel you would be putting the cart before the horse with all the time and labor involved to save about $6.00 bucks per day.
 
To see if it could be done is one thing, but I don't know if I would go crazy over it.
 
Just my two cents. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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MissoulaSVO's picture
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Joined: 02/01/2007

Slate -
The winter has been good. Not too harsh, and lots of fun.
You're blowin' my mind, man with your tank-swapping proposal.  I think the way to do something like this would be to have a truck with dual stock tanks.  One stock tank for diesel. One stock tank for blending.  Then you have the GC or other straight veggie kit too.  You could start on straght diesel, switch to the blender quickly, and then have the straight veggie for long trips.  Sadly, the rams don't have dual tanks.  Didn't you get a powersmoke recently? Does it have dual stock tanks ?
I would be completely satisfied with the other posts mentioning 1 to 1.5 gallons of diesel used per commute, so I'll stick with a regular GC setup for the Big Beast. 
Block heaters, coolant circulating heaters, etc. will keep her purring through the -15 days, too.

veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

Hi Slate,
The small tank could have a blend in order to switch sooner because the fuel will flow better.
 To see if it could be done is one thing, but I don't know if I would go crazy over it.
 Just my two cents. 

Your two cents started my head spinning. I think it is a GREAT idea and it is highly doable. It will needs another tank (10-15 gal), another 3-way valve, a toggle switch and three relays. I add a blend mode in between diesel mode and veggie mode.
Start engine in diesel mode, manual switch on to blend mode then manual switch off blend mode when my coolant temp is above 150F and it will be in veggie mode automatically.
Now I have a BIG question for you and those guys who tried blending especially on Cummins.
What would be the blending diesel to VO ratio for an Cummins engine to run smoothly at 70F coolant temp??????
If the ratio is one to one, I would be able to cut down my diesel usage to half.
 
Edit: After some reseach I did find some useful info about blending WVO with diesel or kerosene.

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

I know a guy who does a 50-50 blend in a 7.3 Power stroke and has no trouble (even in the winter.)
 
I do not think I would be that balls-y in my new (used) 7.3 Power Smoker!!!!
 
We all know that the 12-valve Cummins engine is a great simple power plant.  Right?  That being said (and speaking about my experiences with my truck and friends who have this same motor), I will tender the following information.  Do with it as you see fit:
 
I have heard of people running ¾ wvo and ¼ diesel (HHO/farm grade/road grade) or kerosene in the dead of winter without any issues.
 
I have heard of people running ½ wvo and ½ diesel (HHO/farm grade/road grade) and kerosene in the dead of winter without any issues.
 
I have heard of people running WVO & RUG blends in the dead of winter without any issues.
 
I have one friend in Maryland who has a first Gen (that is relegated to his farm property only) that runs on nothing but WVO in his main tank all year long!
 
Sooooo, your guess and experimentations solely depend on your comfort level with your truck.
 
Here’s my take on it:  I will experiment on my truck with what I find would be an acceptable “risk versus reward” end game because I have a lot of money in my truck and I really do not want to hurt it.  Someone posted (in another topic) that anytime a diesel breaks, it would cost over $1,000.  This is more true than not.  This stays in the back of my pea brain all the time while I am tinkering.
 
I know that if my fuel can flow to the IP, my truck will run on virtually anything.  I would not be too happy firing up a cold engine on cold veggie (but that is just my judgment call.)
 
Vggwpr:  I have an 84-gallon tank.  If I wanted to, I could just fill it up with a 50-50 blend for the winter, run around town, and be done with it.  This truck was built for long highway hauls.  I would shoot myself in the foot if I were going on a 5-hour drive because now, I am burning up 42-gallons of diesel that I normally would not have to.  I really do not like having my wvo tank not full all the time, so keeping the fuel level low for the winter is not a viable option for me.  I find keeping your wvo tank full reduces your ability to create Poly.  Your idea about a smaller tank is a good one, however, as you know, you will spend a goodly amount of time making up the third tank, plumbing, Pollack valve, electrical work and switches, FPHE (if wanted), etc, etc, etc.
 
I have been toying around (in my brain) with pneumatic hose, quick release connections (or the likes) in order to integrate my 275-gallon tote to my 84 gallon wvo tank without ever having to pull over to re-fill the main wvo tank.  I would have my heater lines extended to the tote (via the quick connectors) as well as a small pump on a toggle switch to feed the main wvo tank on the fly.  When done with my trip, I simply disconnect the hoses and forklift my tote off my truck.  I own a 1948 gasoline powered Tow Motor forklift and love it!  I believe everyone should own a forklift :-)
 
I did a Florida trip with a tote in the back.  It was a bit swishy on the way down because the tote had 275 gallons in it, but better on the way up.  I used a ½ tank of diesel for 3,200-mile trip.  Not too shabby!  
 
Another note of interest:  I met a man at Chryslers at Carlisle who removed the electronic fuel pump from his 24-valve, installed a pulley and bracket system, then attached a manual lift pump without any issues.  He told me he could suck lard through that pump without any ill effects.  It was a well-designed (and built) fuel pump transplant.  It looked great.
 
MissoulsSVO:
 
My new (used) Power Smoker does not have duel tanks; however, I have plenty of room on the frame rail to install an additional tank if I wanted to.  I was (am) toying around with the idea of purchasing an Expedition 32 (or 40) gallon plastic tank that would fit perfectly where my spare tire is located.  The problem with this is that I now have to find a new home for the spare tire.  I hate having a spare tire and rim flopping around in the bed of the truck.  I am now looking (and figuring out) what the best size tank would be needed for my planned driving habbits with this truck.  It does not make sense for me to install a 100 gallon tank when a 20 gallon tank would suffice for a round trip drive to my farm and back.  As you know, the smaller the tank, the faster your wvo gets heated (but the more times you have to fill it.)
 
Your truck has a lot of room underneath to install an additional tank as well.  I would just add some additional protection on the tank and the lines to prevent any possible road damage.  I have designed (in my brain…again) the fuel/water lines to be braded (woven) together encapsulated in a PVC pipe that is bracketed to the inner frame well.  This will keep the heat in better as well as protect these lines from road debris possibly kicking up and damaging said lines.  It would be a nice clean look as well.
 
Whew, I just realized I posed a novel……sorry about that!
 
Good luck and keep us posted on what you are thinking about and/or doing you bunch of mad scientists, you!
 
13.1 Jigga-watts? Great Scott!!!!!!!!!!!

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OilGuy's picture
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Joined: 04/17/2011

slatemd, I would be interested in contacting the guy that did a transplant on his 24 valve. If his is interested in sharing his modifications. My IP just died.

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

Here’s my take on it:  I will experiment on my truck with what I find would be an acceptable “risk versus reward” end game because I have a lot of money in my truck and I really do not want to hurt it.  Someone posted (in another topic) that anytime a diesel breaks, it would cost over $1,000.  This is more true than not.  This stays in the back of my pea brain all the time while I am tinkering.
Totally agree with that. 
Your idea about a smaller tank is a good one, however, as you know, you will spend a goodly amount of time making up the third tank, plumbing, Pollack valve, electrical work and switches, FPHE (if wanted), etc, etc, etc.
Should not be a lot of time. Just get an AL tank (13-gal) online and install it next to my VO tank and run fuel hose into the engine bay. Install a GC SV200 soleniod valve and some electrical work and that is it. Can be done in less than $500 parts. Just get parts and install.
I have been toying around (in my brain) with pneumatic hose, quick release connections (or the likes) in order to integrate my 275-gallon tote to my 84 gallon wvo tank without ever having to pull over to re-fill the main wvo tank.  I would have my heater lines extended to the tote (via the quick connectors) as well as a small pump on a toggle switch to feed the main wvo tank on the fly.  When done with my trip, I simply disconnect the hoses and forklift my tote off my truck.  I own a 1948 gasoline powered Tow Motor forklift and love it!  I believe everyone should own a forklift :-)
 The 275-gal tote is a great idea but I don't have this option. My only option is to load up the bed with 5-gal cube and I have not try yet.
 

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

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'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

skyhogg's picture
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Joined: 03/08/2012

Not to hijack but did you convert your 24v using the GC kit? Did you do any additional mods to it? I have a 01 24v that I am preparing to convert. I am a VO novice

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

 did you convert your 24v using the GC kit?
Yes, I think they are the same kit, may be the psi setting on the VO pump is different.
Did you do any additional mods to it?
No additional mods on GC kit.
I have a 01 24v that I am preparing to convert. I am a VO novice
According to GC website 01 and 05 use the same kit (my understanding).

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

Veggpwr:  Yeah, I did the Cubie thing.  It blows and you always manage to spill some!
 
 
Oil Guy:
Sorry to hear about your IP..............(Cha-Ching)
Insert expletives here________________________________________________!
 
I did not obtain any contact information from that person who did the fuel pump switch over because I own a 12-valve. 
I did look at the posted link that veggpwr posted and that system looks a little different from what I saw. 
This person’s lift pump was on the drivers' side of the block underneath the steering box but not all the below the engine as shown in the link.  
I am pretty sure he home brewed it.
The products in the link look good though, but I would add a fabricated  metal plate to protect the lift pump form any bouncing road gravel/debris.
 
I fully subscribe to Murphy's Law!
 
Good luck.
 
Slate
 
 
 
 

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

Slate,
Would you recommend blending WVO with diesel (e.g. 50/50) from coolant temp 70-150F,  without worrying about the engine?
The engine will be started with 100% diesel.

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

Veggpwr:
 
In my truck, I would do what your thinking about without thinking twice about it. 
 
Heck, I switch to wvo when I see my fuel temperture is at 70-degrees (before my Pollack valve) while I am moving and not under a heavy strain.
 
I would have a very low idle with 70-degree veg (almost as if it would stall.) 
 
You know what?  If I were to do what you are thinking about, I would take 2-gallons of 50-50 and try it.  If you do not hear or feel any ill effects, I would try a 75-25 and so on and so forth.
 
I really do not see a problem with your experiments! 
 
I would just advise you t have several pressure and heat gauges throughout your system as so you can see real time data.  I say this only because of your electronic fuel pump (Unless you have a separate fuel pump for your wvo.....I share my lift pump with both fuels.)  In any case, gauges are a good thing to have, and I am sure you already have a few ;-)  
 

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

Slate,
Heck, I switch to wvo when I see my fuel temperture is at 70-degrees (before my Pollack valve) while I am moving and not under a heavy strain.
This is the same case when my co-pilot swtchover to wvo on the coldest days here in the BIG APPLE. The coolant temp will be 150F and the wvo temp will be 70F. The wvo temp will climb up to 150F in 6-8 minutes. Not a problem.
On the coldest morning here and with my block heater plugged in my coolant temp will be over 70F after startup. The co-polit switchover to wvo at coolant temp 150F. I am thinking blending without any negative impact on engine if possible when the coolant temp is between 70-150F and I am moving and not under a heavy strain.
I do have a wvo lift pump, a coolant temp sensor and a wvo temp sensor from GC kit and a stock pump in diesel tank.
I do have a fuel pressure gauge before the CP3 pump.
Just try to figure out what would be the best (Kerosene/RUG/Diesel) to blend with wvo and in what ratio to have a complete combustion before the coolant temp reaches 150F.
So far I found out that wvo (80%) + RUG (19%) + Turpentine (1%) + some Cetane Booster may do the trick.

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

Veggpwr:
 
You a NYC boy? 

Hells bells son, take a 15 minute drive north up the Deegan and you will be at my laboratory/compound….......
 
I think you would be beautiful at an 80-20 (wvo & diesel) with a little Marvel Mystery Oil and or Transmission fluid thrown in for good luck.
 
How did you come up with Turpentine?

Interesting.

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

Slate,
Yes, I am near the Outerbridge, not far away from you.
These are what I found:
Four requirements of any blend formula for single tank (including COLD start) operation:
1) get close to the viscosity of diesel without using heat.
       Add Kerosene or Regular Unleaded Gasoline as a viscosity reducer. It is not intended as a fuel.
       It will lower the overall cetane rating.
2) Maintain adequate lubrication of the fuel syatem.
      Add a diesel fuel lubrication additive. This is precautionary.
3) Maintain complete combustion.
      Choose a fuel lube additive that also has cetane boosters
4) Maintain a stable, non-separating mixture.
       Add 1% Turpentine to dissolve fats in WVO, prevent coagulation and add stability without effecting combustion.
Does the above formula makes sense? Please comment .
I am considering it for my warm-up while driving period. There will no heat in the blended tank. The blended WVO will pumped by the WVO pump, through the WVO filter with heat exchanger and then FPHE before entering the CP3 pump.
 I will be running in veggie mode with blended fuel for that 8-10 miles (coldest days) drive warm-up period before switchover to WVO.
So my operation cycle will be: Start with diesel/drive warm-up with blend WVO/drive with WVO/Purge with diesel. I think I can use the Electric Heater Relay Trigger signal to trigger the blending operation. That means the co-pilot will control the blending automatically.

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2007

Outerbridge?
You are in a foreign country man!  When I got to S.I., I usually go through Jersey…..
Your formulas make sense to me, but I do not understand half of it.
Do what makes you sleep well at night while protecting your truck.
 
 

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veggpwr's picture
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Joined: 09/27/2010

That's not my formula. I just found it online and taking it into consideration with cautions so I can sleep well at night.
I know there are people against single tank blending. The best/safest will be the two tank system and the bio-diesel. I do believe blending (in a correct way to ensure complete combustion) is a safe option. 

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

BrianMiller's picture
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Joined: 05/11/2006

Four requirements of any blend formula for single tank (including COLD start) operation:
1) get close to the viscosity of diesel without using heat.
       Add Kerosene or Regular Unleaded Gasoline as a viscosity reducer. It is not intended as a fuel.
       It will lower the overall cetane rating.
2) Maintain adequate lubrication of the fuel syatem.
      Add a diesel fuel lubrication additive. This is precautionary.
3) Maintain complete combustion.
      Choose a fuel lube additive that also has cetane boosters
4) Maintain a stable, non-separating mixture.
       Add 1% Turpentine to dissolve fats in WVO, prevent coagulation and add stability without effecting combustion...........................
 
I agree with all. I dont remember why but when i use to play with blending i like to use mineral spirits rather then turpentine

OilGuy's picture
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What happens to the engine when it is not fully up to operational temp? Isn't there the possibility
of veg going into the crankcase?
I've heard of the rings not being fully expanding on a diesel when not up to temp. how will this effect your decision to save a little on fuel at the detriment of your engine?

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veggpwr's picture
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Don't get me wrong and I could be wrong. I admit I am a little bit crazy in trying to get the most out of my GC kit.
It's my own opinion and see if it fits!
All internal combustion engines (gasoline/diesel) have the blow-by issue. It's only a matter of more or less, from new engine to old (high mileage) engine. It's true that there is blow-by before the engine is at operating temp. That's why the owner manual suggested to start and drive to warm-up, not idling. The key is try to warm-up fast and try to get complete combustion. And that's one of the reason we do oil change. So try to warm-up fast and aviod long idling (running in WVO or even diesel)
It is impossible to assure there will be (100%) no WVO in the crankcase if you are running veggie even at operating engine temp. What if one day you find out you are making oil in your crankcase because one of the injector leaking into the combustion chamber and wash down the rings? Injectors failure on Cummins are not uncommon. Can you tell your injector will be leaking soon? So the chance of having WVO in the crankcase is always there when we run on veggie.
The decision to run on veggie at different coolant temp will be depends on how comfortable the operator feel about the combustion. I know my truck burns WVO very good. I cannot tell the truck is running on WVO while standing behind the tail pipe. I have the Smarty Jr software installed that can give me more HP, more timing advance and more torque. Timing Advance is a plus to assure complete combustion.
The blending operation I am considering will be at most 10 minutes at each cold start. If people can start a cold engine and runs good with a blending formula, I think that formula will be good for me for my driving warm-up. My truck will be started with diesel at coolant temp above 70F even in the coldest days here so the engine is not really cold for blending operation.
I do replace the factory diesel fuel filter to 5 micron and have an extra 2-3 micron filter before the CP3 pump, trying to protect the CP3 pump and injectors from premature failure.

__________________

'05 Cummins CTD 24V HPCR RAM 2500 QC SLT SB Black 4X4 48RE  325 hp  610 ft.lbs
GC Kit  + 3rd Tank WVO(80%)/RUG(20-30%)  +  Co-Pilot 
3-Tank Operation managed by Co-Pilot: Blending(warm up) / Veggie(hot run) / Diesel(purge for next start)
Smarty Jr  40/70/100 hp (Timing Map Modification)
 

slatemd's picture
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Oh, you are definitely crazy!  That’s what I like about you!

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jason blake's picture
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Joined: 08/22/2012

hi does anybody know where i can get 3 way 12 volt feul switch over valves from at a cheap price for my veg oil conversion.
thanx in advance

Rick's picture
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