BUSH & ADMIN. LIED ABOUT WMD!!! NO SHIT SHERLOCK
January 23, 2008 - 2:00am
By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press
WASHINGTON - A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.
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The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."
The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.
White House spokesman Scott Stanzel did not comment on the merits of the study Tuesday night but reiterated the administration's position that the world community viewed Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, as a threat.
"The actions taken in 2003 were based on the collective judgment of intelligence agencies around the world," Stanzel said.
The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both.
"It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida," according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. "In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003."
Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.
Bush led with 259 false statements, 231 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 28 about Iraq's links to al-Qaida, the study found. That was second only to Powell's 244 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 10 about Iraq and al-Qaida.
The center said the study was based on a database created with public statements over the two years beginning on Sept. 11, 2001, and information from more than 25 government reports, books, articles, speeches and interviews.
"The cumulative effect of these false statements ? amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts ? was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war," the study concluded.
"Some journalists ? indeed, even some entire news organizations ? have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical. These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional, 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq," it said.
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January 23, 2008 - 8:42am
#2
Always be careful with what you think you know.
Until 9/11, Saddam thought UN sanctions would go away and he could make a nuclear bomb. His prewar weapons of mass destruction deceptions were a ruse to convince Iran - whom he feared - that he had an arsenal.
January 23, 2008 - 8:52am
#3
Well this is a "no-duh" article...
Since we now know that the WMD had been eliminated or moved to Syria prior to the war, and that much of the intelligence we had was faulty, it should come as no surprise that statements from Bush regarding WMD were false...
But how does that make it a "lie"?
There is a difference..but Liberals in their rush to condemn Bush choose to ignore it...so typical.
And yes Saddam did want everyone to think he was hiding something..It was a deterrent to his enemies...
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January 23, 2008 - 9:54am
#4
The problem i have is that people generally when they make the statement that saddam had no WMD's mean that he never had any WMD's and historically that is 100% provably WRONG. We even funded a couple of his projects to make some chemical WMD's he also had some mobile labratories that could easily make some pretty nasty things. Of course by the time we accually caught these things they were stripped down. But the premis behind saddam haveing no wmd's is very much false. To me it is compairable to the level of flawed thinking that leads some people to think 911 was a inside job perpetrated by our government.
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January 23, 2008 - 10:45am
#5
I usually avoid these discussions, but I have a question:
If Saddam did not have WMDs, kept saying he did not have them, had UN inspectors agreeing with him, how is it we could invade the country based on him not giving them up?
Its like proving a negative, its impossible.
But in real life, we have some protections against things like this. If the police think you have drugs in your house, they have to obtain a search warrant. If they do, but do not find any drugs, you do have legal recourse for the trouble they put you through. Especially if you had record of telling them you did not, and allowing detectives to come into your house and search to a limited extent.
If the Iraq scenario was somehow addressed in court, the US would most decidedly be found liable. Ignorance of facts does not give a party the right to act with impunity.
Saddam was a very bad person. His regime was pretty bad, though there are many in the world which are MUCH worse. He did possess and use WMDs in the past. He did desire nuclear capability just as his neighbors did, do, and are actively and almost openly developing. But I have yet to hear a valid reason why we had the right to invade his country and subsequently execute him, or at least orchestrate his execution.
But this is all moot anyway.
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January 23, 2008 - 11:22am
#6
We fronted him money and weapons to fight the Irainian war in the eighties . What he did to people in his own country was genicide we did nothing but when he invaded Quaite we retaliated went to war . Imposed sanctions inspected for WMD's kept a tighter grip on Iraq. 911 comes along and instead of getting the SOB that orcastrated it Osama BinLadden hunting him down and destrying his entire network . Our President Admin.and Congress went after him with a half hearted effort that continues to this day. But we went after Saddam with a full out war that was ill conseaved but put many soldiers at risk of death and for what !!!
January 24, 2008 - 10:05am
#7
What is really sad it that, due to the Bush administration's past story telling, we can't count on them to tell us the truth about any other potential threat. Like Iran. Case of blown credibility.
January 24, 2008 - 1:34pm
#8
Your right HDT I believe in the saying believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you read. But in the case of Bush and his admin. Believe nothing at all.
January 28, 2008 - 8:50am
#9
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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TDI GUY
What is a weapon of mass destruction to you?
If you dont know here it is a Nuclear Bomb, Atomic Bomb, Nutron Bomb, Mother Nature.
Conventional weapons including chemical, biological, and gas are not able to kill on a mass level. Dont confuse this with a virus.
The next time sombody cries WMD think twice.
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January 28, 2008 - 9:29am
#10
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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TDI GUY
What is a weapon of mass destruction to you?
If you dont know here it is a Nuclear Bomb, Atomic Bomb, Nutron Bomb, Mother Nature.
Conventional weapons including chemical, biological, and gas are not able to kill on a mass level. Dont confuse this with a virus.
The next time sombody cries WMD think twice.
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here is a definition for you straight from wiki.
A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a weapon which can kill large numbers of humans, animals and plants, and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings) or natural structures (e.g. mountains). The term covers several weapon types, including nuclear, biological, chemical (NBC) and, increasingly, radiological weapons. There is controversy over when the term was first used, either in 1937 (in reference to the aerial bombardment of Guernica, Spain) or in 1945 (with reference to nuclear weapons). Following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and progressing through the Cold War, the term came to refer more to non-conventional weapons. The phrase entered widespread usage in relation to the U.S.-led 2003 invasion of Iraq. Terms used in a military context include atomic, biological, and chemical warfare (ABC warfare), nuclear, biological, and chemical (NBC) after the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN), recognizing the threat of subcritical radiological weapons.
AND just so there is no confusion under biological warefare i found this on wiki also.
Biological warfare (BW), also known as a germ warfare, biological weapons, and bioweapons, is the use of any pathogen (bacterium, virus or other disease-causing organism) as a weapon of war. Using nonliving toxic products, even if produced by living organisms (e.g., toxins), is considered Chemical warfare under the provisions of the Chemical Weapons Convention. A biological weapon may be intended to kill, incapacitate or seriously impede an adversary. It may also be defined as the material or defense against such employment. Biological warfare is a military technique that can be used by nation-states or non-national group. In the latter case, or if a nation-state uses it clandestinely, it may also be bioterrorism.
So now that we have our definitions correct what about those kurds? I would have to say they were killed by a biological weapon intended to inflict massive numbers of casualties by saddam. Thus concluding rock solid proof that saddam at some point not only had a WMD but he used it also.
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January 28, 2008 - 9:34am
#11
I believe that chemical and biological weapons are both considered to be WMDs by the UN and all countries who signed anti-chem/bio weapons treaties.
By their very nature, they kill on a mass and indiscriminate level. One canister of WWI era mustard gas can spread throughout a community and kill/maim hundreds.
***TDIGuy*** you beat me to it! :)
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January 28, 2008 - 12:10pm
#12
OK now that we have defined WHAT he had, lets define when we found out:
Chemical weapons are used extensively during Iran-Iraq war. Most are used by Iraq. Saddam is also believed to have used them against his own people, primarily Kurdish and Shiia minorities. First use during the war is by Iraq. By 1985 Iraq is producing 1,000 tons of various chemical weapons agents annually.
You can twist it however you like, Bush/Cheney/et al thought Sadam had or was going to shortly have Nukes. It may have even been a lie perpetrated by Al-Qaeda since they actually gain a lot by us being bogged down in the middle east. They didn't know the guy had chemical and biological weapons for almost 20 years then all the sudden decide to do something about it.
January 28, 2008 - 3:31pm
#13
O it is no question that we ignored the problem for a long time. I would even say we knew about what was going on and turned a blind eye to it. But to simply say that saddam had no WMD's and such is a completly false and not only is it totally false it is historically inaccurate. The pres just bends the truth to make a $. Unfortunantly so many people blindly believe the press it really makes the vast majority of us look like fools.
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January 29, 2008 - 2:10am
#14
What he once had and what he had after we defeated him and took control ha ha of his country are 2 very different things ! Yes he was a tirant he deserved what he got but The Bush Administration trumped up the reason for going to war with Iraq based of lies . To me it's like a cop working in a ghetto It's easier to give a speeding ticket to someone then to try and stop a drug transation on the same street.
January 29, 2008 - 9:48am
#15
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
O it is no question that we ignored the problem for a long time. I would even say we knew about what was going on and turned a blind eye to it. But to simply say that saddam had no WMD's and such is a completly false and not only is it totally false it is historically inaccurate. The pres just bends the truth to make a $. Unfortunantly so many people blindly believe the press it really makes the vast majority of us look like fools.
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The sorry part is that:
THERE WERE OR EVER WERE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTIONS,
except the ones the reagan and bush administration gave Sadam to gas the curds and those gas bombs were from WW2. And the weapons to fight Iran.
You should do a little more research in the developtment and deliver of chemical, and biological weapons.
Remember Sadam was found in a hole... and not by the Americans... another lie, like the heroic recue of that girl out of a hospital, I didnt know the cia could act so well.
See the other weapon of mass destruction is a military capable of destroying a deffesless country under false pretense. Like the United States has done. Iraq 8 million Dead. US casualties 4000+ wounded 100,000+, Plus Afganistan. What about the so called alies we have how many of them died in Iraq, and the 150,000+ contractors how many of them are dead.
So like Sadam a nation leader dictator whatever to bring his country under controll did the same thing we did to the American Plains Indians but at a much smaller scale.
Dont be a hipocrate and comit to justification especially if you call your self religious.
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January 29, 2008 - 10:31am
#16
I love how the same person that cant get a basic definition of a WMD is telling me i am wrong and not providing any usefull information to support his argument then has to mention the R word at the end of it. I guess you want to now turn this into a religion flame because anyone can argue religion.
I disproved your statements about saddam and wmd's with solid facts there is nothing that can be said on the matter to disprove that saddam was in possesion of WMD's that is the extent of my statement whatever you derive from that is your own imagination. I dont care how he got them the fact is he had them and anyone willing to argue he did not have them is looking at the facts with a blind eye.
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January 29, 2008 - 4:40pm
#17
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
I love how the same person that cant get a basic definition of a WMD is telling me i am wrong and not providing any usefull information to support his argument then has to mention the R word at the end of it. I guess you want to now turn this into a religion flame because anyone can argue religion.
I disproved your statements about saddam and wmd's with solid facts there is nothing that can be said on the matter to disprove that saddam was in possesion of WMD's that is the extent of my statement whatever you derive from that is your own imagination. I dont care how he got them the fact is he had them and anyone willing to argue he did not have them is looking at the facts with a blind eye.
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What video dont you believe TDI?
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January 29, 2008 - 5:16pm
#18
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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Okay. Count me as an idiot.
Along with 60% of the rest of the nation.
January 29, 2008 - 5:18pm
#19
Quote:
Originally posted by: Henry David Thoreau
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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Okay. Count me as an idiot.
Along with 60% of the rest of the nation.
ok idiot go look up some historical facts. saddam killed thousands of kurds with biological weapons. Biological weapons are WMD's proof positive he not only had a WMD but he used them. Why are so many (60% as you say) people such idiots to believe the press propaganda against bush saying that saddam had no WMD's
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January 29, 2008 - 5:24pm
#20
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
I love how the same person that cant get a basic definition of a WMD is telling me i am wrong and not providing any usefull information to support his argument then has to mention the R word at the end of it. I guess you want to now turn this into a religion flame because anyone can argue religion.
I disproved your statements about saddam and wmd's with solid facts there is nothing that can be said on the matter to disprove that saddam was in possesion of WMD's that is the extent of my statement whatever you derive from that is your own imagination. I dont care how he got them the fact is he had them and anyone willing to argue he did not have them is looking at the facts with a blind eye.
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What video dont you believe TDI?
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Neither one accually. I am sorry was there surposed to be FACTUAL information in there somwehere from a RELIABLE CREDABLE source? You need to take a class on research 101 there DC The second video does not even tell me why i should believe the speaker and the first video is obviously heavily edited leaving me to wonder what parts if any are accually factual. The second video is some guy on a rant and nothing more because personally i have no idea who he is or what research if any he bases his OPINIONS on. Got any other arguments i can sink in under 1 second of thought? The only way to disprove my statement is to find solid factual information disproving that kurds were killed by saddam with a biological weapon. Since it is documented and there have been documentarys on it i seriously doubt it is possible to disprove. It would be easier to prove that we never landed on the moon then to prove saddam never was in possesion of a WMD.
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January 29, 2008 - 6:37pm
#21
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Quote:
Originally posted by: Henry David Thoreau
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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Okay. Count me as an idiot.
Along with 60% of the rest of the nation.
ok idiot go look up some historical facts. saddam killed thousands of kurds with biological weapons. Biological weapons are WMD's proof positive he not only had a WMD but he used them. Why are so many (60% as you say) people such idiots to believe the press propaganda against bush saying that saddam had no WMD's
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Actually, the historical facts are where you are going wrong. He used those WMDs against the Kurds, if I remember correctly, in the late 1980s. We went to war almost 15 years later over WMDs. The question was not whether he had them at some point in history, rather, that he had them in 2003 and that he was going to use them against us. In 2003, we went to war for "now," not for "then."
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Andrew
1983 Mercedes 300D Turbo- 174K- 5K greasy miles!
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January 29, 2008 - 8:00pm
#22
DC,
You say "8 million" Iraqis dead from this war... I'd be VERY interested in where you got that number from. It seems implausibly high.
I'm not saying your wrong, just saying:
Source, please.
January 29, 2008 - 8:24pm
#23
Quote:
Originally posted by: dcwier1
Your right HDT I believe in the saying believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you read. But in the case of Bush and his admin. Believe nothing at all.
Especially since the people writing the stories have their own anti Bush agenda.
Im sure we are all perfectly safe.
Bush is a lame duck, I have not been too pleased with some of the things he has done, however, he sure got my vote because his opponent was a complete imbecile.
You all should really be concerned about Bushs predecessor.
As far a WMDs are concerned, please re-read the politically charged post of several months ago covering this topic. I am tired of beating a dead horse.
We were justified for invading that shit hole........my opinion.
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January 29, 2008 - 9:27pm
#24
Quote:
Originally posted by: cavaliers16
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Quote:
Originally posted by: Henry David Thoreau
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
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Okay. Count me as an idiot.
Along with 60% of the rest of the nation.
ok idiot go look up some historical facts. saddam killed thousands of kurds with biological weapons. Biological weapons are WMD's proof positive he not only had a WMD but he used them. Why are so many (60% as you say) people such idiots to believe the press propaganda against bush saying that saddam had no WMD's
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Actually, the historical facts are where you are going wrong. He used those WMDs against the Kurds, if I remember correctly, in the late 1980s. We went to war almost 15 years later over WMDs. The question was not whether he had them at some point in history, rather, that he had them in 2003 and that he was going to use them against us. In 2003, we went to war for "now," not for "then."
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Andrew
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If he had them at some point then there is allways the possibility that he could get them again. I find it rather suspicious that he had chemical producing labs in RV's and such that were capable of producing very sophisticated chemical compounds and that he refused to allow UN inspectors to do there jobs. I mean lets put this into context that is more readily understood. Imagine the police with a search warrent (the UN inspectors) are somehow delayed from searching some place for whatever reason. This place they want to search is suspect for producing methamphetamines. Then when they do get in they find all the equipment that would be needed to produce the drugs but they do not find any drugs or ingrediants. Do you think that the owner would be tossed in jail and likely convicted? Or somethine even more benine lets say you are one of those people that accually measures your postage so you have a very sensitive scale do you realize that can also be considered contraban material?
Saddam proved that he had WMD's which means that he had the methods to produce them and the knowledge to produce them and the will to use them. We were delayed on investigation this bought him time to hide and or desroy proof or evidance. We then got in and inspected and found facilities on wheels capable of producing such agents. To me that is like a cop finding all the equipment needed in my house to produce meth and if that was the case i bet i would be spending a bit of time in jail.
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January 30, 2008 - 2:38am
#25
I'm not trying to be flippant when I ask this, but honestly, why are we the only sovereign nation in the world? We are supposed to respect the sovereignty of other nations as well. When we are developing OUR OWN weapons of mass destruction, why don't we allow inspectors from other nations to keep an eye on us? Why do we keep this information secret? Why don't we keep our noses out of other countries affairs, unless it's deemed that there is an imminent threat? This is what the Constitution says we should do, yet we ignore it.
We should protect ourselves, but not attack other nations only because we feel like they might cause trouble down the road. Why don't we invade China? Why didn't we invade Russia a handful of years ago? Why don't we attack North Korea? Why don't we protect the ravaged people of Africa?
If you're in favor of the war in Iraq, and the possible war in Iran, these are all questions you need to honestly ask yourself. These countries are no threat to the United States. We have no Constitutional right to dictate to other nations what they are allowed to do inside their own borders, just as they have no right to tell US what to do. Why is this so hard to understand? Read the Constitution, please, if you do not understand this. If they attack us in any way, we have the right to squash them. Simple. Until that time, they should be free to do what they please. Any other policy is arrogant, and un-Constitutional.
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Marshall from NC
1993 Mercedes 300D
January 30, 2008 - 11:16am
#26
You have a too simplistic view IMHO...
Yes we should MYOB. But do not confuse it with sticking ones head in the sand.
In the age of nuclear weapons, one cant just wait till they attack us. Taking an isloationist attitude is outdated and shear folly.
Countries that mean us harm, especially those with nuclear weapons or nuclear intentions, have to dealt with on a case by case basis. Sometimes it means isolating them politcally, militarily, or economically, other times we may have to invade. Each country is different. But the last thing we do is stick our heads in the sand.
If you are so keen on a strict interpretation and adherence to the Consitution and principals of our Founding Fathers,
you ought to join the contitution party: http://www.constitutionparty.org/
Principles they beleive in:
Out of UN,
Abolish income tax
No welfare
Anti-Keilo Ruling (emmenint domain)
Right to life (as written in dec of Independence)
No SS
No NAFTA, GATT,WTO
For Term Limits
I agree with much of what they say but they lose me on National Security and some domestic issues and just a bit too populist for me.. They are big on Ronnie Paul
Sounds like the party for you...
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January 30, 2008 - 2:01pm
#27
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
I love how the same person that cant get a basic definition of a WMD is telling me i am wrong and not providing any usefull information to support his argument then has to mention the R word at the end of it. I guess you want to now turn this into a religion flame because anyone can argue religion.
I disproved your statements about saddam and wmd's with solid facts there is nothing that can be said on the matter to disprove that saddam was in possesion of WMD's that is the extent of my statement whatever you derive from that is your own imagination. I dont care how he got them the fact is he had them and anyone willing to argue he did not have them is looking at the facts with a blind eye.
-------------------------
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What video dont you believe TDI?
-------------------------
Neither one accually. I am sorry was there surposed to be FACTUAL information in there somwehere from a RELIABLE CREDABLE source? You need to take a class on research 101 there DC The second video does not even tell me why i should believe the speaker and the first video is obviously heavily edited leaving me to wonder what parts if any are accually factual. The second video is some guy on a rant and nothing more because personally i have no idea who he is or what research if any he bases his OPINIONS on. Got any other arguments i can sink in under 1 second of thought? The only way to disprove my statement is to find solid factual information disproving that kurds were killed by saddam with a biological weapon. Since it is documented and there have been documentarys on it i seriously doubt it is possible to disprove. It would be easier to prove that we never landed on the moon then to prove saddam never was in possesion of a WMD.
-------------------------
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Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
The Guy in the second video is in fact the KEY weapons inspector. From Clinton to Bush look it up.
Saddam was helped into power by Reagan & Bush 41 and was given the WMD to kill the Kurds trying to overthrow the Government in place.
TDI I am pissed off too but there were never WMD nothing that would cause catosrfic deaths in Iraqs surrounding population. All peoples and countries have a right to defence...
We are a Christian society we believe in Democracy this is what we stand for not Killing for oil or any other reason but self defence. We are a highly educated and rich in our own minirals and technology and if our Government didnt put such a high price on oil we would not be having this conversation...
At least we agree the MOON thory. :)
-------------------------
January 30, 2008 - 8:31pm
#28
/sarasm on....
Nah, we are not Christian nation! thats bigotted!
We should kill whomever we want, saying killing for oil is wrong might be YOUR morals, but not mine. If we can kill unborn babies for conveneience, certainly killing for oil is legitimate! I mean, you cant be pro-abortion and anti-war, right? So dont shove your morals down my throat!
Right On!
... /sarcasm off
-------------------------
Whatever "Green" means to you, GreenRoadSupply.com helps you make it so.
January 30, 2008 - 8:57pm
#29
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
January 30, 2008 - 9:51pm
#30
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
Grow up TDI
-------------------------
January 30, 2008 - 10:34pm
#31
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
Grow up TDI
-------------------------
Grow up?
Sounds like a correct description of Saddam and his WMD to me...
-------------------------
Whatever "Green" means to you, GreenRoadSupply.com helps you make it so.
January 30, 2008 - 10:51pm
#32
Quote:
Originally posted by: Tom Yaz
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
Grow up TDI
-------------------------
Grow up?
Sounds like a correct description of Saddam and his WMD to me...
-------------------------
Whatever "Green" means to you, GreenRoadSupply.com helps you make it so.
Yaz
Ok
-------------------------
January 30, 2008 - 10:53pm
#33
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
Grow up TDI
-------------------------
Open your eyes the truth is staring you in the face.
Seriously just imagine for a moment a similar situation in civilian law in the USA. Imagine you have been seem before dealing in meth and its a easily proven fact that in the past you have delt meth before. Now someone says that you are dealing in meth again. So the police get a search warrant to inspect your house. They come and you deny them access (and for some reason lets say they can only inspect with your concent also..) for several days and when they come in they can not find any meth (lol ya big surprize there right?) but they instead find all the equipment needed to make it. Do you think they would simply walk awey and let you go about your buisness? Not likely. If we had turned our back on saddam again it would have just been another instance of us turning a blind eye to a problem that yes we created.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
January 30, 2008 - 11:14pm
#34
Take it to another forum. I come here to get away from that junk.
January 31, 2008 - 6:02am
#35
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
RIGHT so saddam was a likable kind and fair ruler? Saddam and his family were a pack of killers they were monsters and that is a NICE way to describe there despicable actions! Saddam had all the resources to create biological weapons and refused to allow weapons inspectors to inspect facilities. He also had possesion of biological weapons in the past. Therefore we have proof that at some time he had WMD's he had the capacity to produce WMD's and he had the sadistic willpower and desire to use WMD's.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
Grow up TDI
-------------------------
Open your eyes the truth is staring you in the face.
Seriously just imagine for a moment a similar situation in civilian law in the USA. Imagine you have been seem before dealing in meth and its a easily proven fact that in the past you have delt meth before. Now someone says that you are dealing in meth again. So the police get a search warrant to inspect your house. They come and you deny them access (and for some reason lets say they can only inspect with your concent also..) for several days and when they come in they can not find any meth (lol ya big surprize there right?) but they instead find all the equipment needed to make it. Do you think they would simply walk awey and let you go about your buisness? Not likely. If we had turned our back on saddam again it would have just been another instance of us turning a blind eye to a problem that yes we created.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
He couldnt make any WMD's Iraq has been bombed for over 25 years... There were none or are any or will there ever be it was all made up fictiscious lies. To invade a severien country... So we can send 4 Billion a week on fighting a Gost.
Hell call the Gost what you like we are not fighting a country...
or at war with a country...
-------------------------
January 31, 2008 - 7:44am
#36
Hey dieselcrazy,
You still haven't answered my question (you probably just didn't see it):
Where did you get the "8 million dead Iraqis" figure from? Source?
Thanks, ~Joe
January 31, 2008 - 8:19am
#37
Quote:
Originally posted by: Thesst
Hey dieselcrazy,
You still haven't answered my question (you probably just didn't see it):
Where did you get the "8 million dead Iraqis" figure from? Source?
Thanks, ~Joe
I meant up to 800,000 +
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
-------------------------
January 31, 2008 - 10:19am
#38
Oh OK, that sounds about right. Gracias.
January 31, 2008 - 10:43am
#39
once again DC you make a 100% false statement. By saying saddam NEVER had WMD's you are 100% wrong. Your mind is clouded with emotion. So you think we should pull out of the mideast? you think if we simply cover our eyes and play blind terrorists will not strike us at home again? You should do some reading. Osama has a deep seeded hatred for the USA to him the american citizens areto be considered fair game as targets because we support our govenment with the taxes that we pay. So hows that make you feel? he will kill an american near or far for no other reason then we pay taxes and therefore support a country he is in a holy war with. Also that study war blamed for 655000 iraqi deaths I didnt really see any story there just a headline so i wonder if that is comprosed of all the soldiers killed and all the people that have died from suicide bombings. I would be willing to bet that if we narrowed the number down to INNOCENT iraqi people killed by direct contact with american or UN fighting the numbers would be in the low hundreds. W
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
January 31, 2008 - 1:17pm
#40
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
once again DC you make a 100% false statement. By saying saddam NEVER had WMD's you are 100% wrong. Your mind is clouded with emotion. So you think we should pull out of the mideast? you think if we simply cover our eyes and play blind terrorists will not strike us at home again? You should do some reading. Osama has a deep seeded hatred for the USA to him the american citizens areto be considered fair game as targets because we support our govenment with the taxes that we pay. So hows that make you feel? he will kill an american near or far for no other reason then we pay taxes and therefore support a country he is in a holy war with. Also that study war blamed for 655000 iraqi deaths I didnt really see any story there just a headline so i wonder if that is comprosed of all the soldiers killed and all the people that have died from suicide bombings. I would be willing to bet that if we narrowed the number down to INNOCENT iraqi people killed by direct contact with american or UN fighting the numbers would be in the low hundreds. W
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
First thing the cause and effect of the 800,000+ dead iraqi's is a direct effect of the war the Bush adminstration forced and waged against Iraq and the inocent people there in order to punish Sadam, his Sons and a few more people put on a deck of cards.
Do you really think Osama is real? I bet you believe in the easter bunny and Santa too.
Do you really believe that a guy from a cave in afganistan planed and ordered 9/11? and is still out and about having tea. Also Osama hates us but the rest of the bin laden family who attends Columbia university and osamas son is going to marry into the royal family of england is our alies.
So you agree with destroying entire generations of families, history (Bagdad is the second oldest city on earth, Caboul is the oldest.) and infastructure in order to punish one man Sadam. Is he really that much of threat and is worth 4 billion a week taken out of our wealth.
But there is no money for entitlements like Free healthcare, Education, retirement, our Veterans, our infastructure ect. But politicians have all of those entitlements and more, we working people arent worth it. Bush and his Clan is better then you and me and our families we need to pay for all the things they get from tax payer funded entitlements.
The war has put us 8 trillion in bedt. and all this money being spent is like lighting fire works on the fourth of july. Nothing to show for it but. Death, and Media Coverage and the creation of Al Queada and enemy w/o a state or flag who are they where do they come from? Where have they been.
During WW2 what did the Nazis call the underground in France, Italy, Norway, ect. whats the German for Base.
I guess they are savages like the American Indians were.
Bush cares more about Iraq then our country. Why? $$$$$$$
-------------------------
January 31, 2008 - 3:49pm
#41
It's like I said before DajaVietnam all over again . A whole lot of death and destruction . For what IT DON'T MEAN NOTHIN
January 31, 2008 - 11:10pm
#42
DC your totally out of touch with what is going on. I have no idea where you get your thoughts or what you consider to be a argument but your way out in left field. So much so that i honestly think your on something illegal.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
January 31, 2008 - 11:15pm
#43
O and just for clarifycation US soldiers will not fire on any unarmed civilians ever not even if ordered to do so as part of the general orders a soldier will never obey an illegal or immoral order as outlined in the geneva conventions. The same is true for targets of any types of US weapons. The same however is NOT true of suicide bombers and such. When terrorsits attacked the US embasys they killed 200 people 190of them were muslams of that nation. They kill indiscriminately.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
February 1, 2008 - 3:37am
#44
Quote:
Originally posted by: Going Green
Take it to another forum. I come here to get away from that junk.
LOL....don't click, idiot.....I'm typically a very nice person...but don't come here, click on a subject you know you don't want to participate in, and bitch about it......that is the definition of stupid....some people here like to debate about politics....if you don't, don't join.....I'm sorry if some of the most important things of the day don't interest you.....just stay away....easy to do....again, don't come to this thread again....stop being an idiot....there is no force in nature that MAKES you click here....JUST SAY NO....don't do it....leave it to the rest of us....
-------------------------
Marshall from NC
1993 Mercedes 300D
February 1, 2008 - 7:31am
#45
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
O and just for clarifycation US soldiers will not fire on any unarmed civilians ever not even if ordered to do so as part of the general orders a soldier will never obey an illegal or immoral order as outlined in the geneva conventions. The same is true for targets of any types of US weapons. The same however is NOT true of suicide bombers and such. When terrorsits attacked the US embasys they killed 200 people 190of them were muslams of that nation. They kill indiscriminately.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
What do rules of war have to do with our country being a democracy. Iraq was not or has ever been an eminet threat.
We kicked the shit out of them in the first Gulf war and have had inspectors and regular bombings since that war.
Suicide bombers are Revolutionists in there own country fighting the Invader and fighting for what they believe. After all we bombed them they didnt bomb us. With the excuse of Sadam we killed inocent people, Mothers, Grandmothers, Pregnant women, Fathers and sons ect.
Yes TDI we are invaders not liberators. Sadam was an elected official and Iraq Governed with the power and ability Iraq had. Our last two elections were questionable...
You want to deny the fact that we are in fact a Democracy and our first goal is to provide basic rights of life as we have in our modern day society. Health Care, Education, Right of Chooice. All these things have been forced upon us as a need like driving a car and breathing air.
If these things arent provided as good as the presidents who swears to protect and serve and show compasion. Then we may as well live in a fuedal system.
Remember our Government wants to help a family making 150000 a year by giving them a loan for 1200. What does this tell you ? This tell me we are in deep shit.
Why does the Government use abortion as a tool it should be left to the person to decide if they want the responsibility to bring another life in a complex world, let them decide. People are kill the living to save or force a woman to give birth and also support a war that has killed and injured millions, this is hipocracy. I didnt see Right to lifers protesting the war, or the holy rollers.
-------------------------
February 1, 2008 - 8:44am
#46
"Suicide bombers are Revolutionists in there own country fighting the Invader and fighting for what they believe"
How is blowing themselves up in markets kililng 51 just yesterday "fighting the invader"?
If one does not have the right to life, then all other rights are pointless. Who made the woman God?
" our first goal is to provide basic rights of life as we have in our modern day society." Health Care, Education, Right of Chooice."
So we have a "rights of life" if and only if the woman decides to bequeath it to us? Doesnt sound like a "right" to me....
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
-------------------------
Whatever "Green" means to you, GreenRoadSupply.com helps you make it so.
February 1, 2008 - 1:32pm
#47
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
O and just for clarifycation US soldiers will not fire on any unarmed civilians ever not even if ordered to do so as part of the general orders a soldier will never obey an illegal or immoral order as outlined in the geneva conventions. The same is true for targets of any types of US weapons. The same however is NOT true of suicide bombers and such. When terrorsits attacked the US embasys they killed 200 people 190of them were muslams of that nation. They kill indiscriminately.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
BM a Cummings TD is a monster truck the engine weighs 5000 pounds alone and with a 2wd you can reach up to 24mpg thats incredible.
I can borrow a 2001 Dodge Ram Dually 4x4 with a cummings and when you look at the computer it tells you you are getting 15 mpg or better that better then my MB the entire truck weighs in at 9000 pounds.
But I have heard that the fords like grease better then the Dodge or Chevy.
I was looking at a 7.3 ford excursion 2 wd and people claime to get up to 22 to 24 mpg hwy pretty good for a rolling bus.
Remember 2wd low to the ground better mpg.
-------------------------
February 1, 2008 - 7:18pm
#48
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
O and just for clarifycation US soldiers will not fire on any unarmed civilians ever not even if ordered to do so as part of the general orders a soldier will never obey an illegal or immoral order as outlined in the geneva conventions. The same is true for targets of any types of US weapons. The same however is NOT true of suicide bombers and such. When terrorsits attacked the US embasys they killed 200 people 190of them were muslams of that nation. They kill indiscriminately.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
What do rules of war have to do with our country being a democracy. Iraq was not or has ever been an eminet threat.
We kicked the shit out of them in the first Gulf war and have had inspectors and regular bombings since that war.
Suicide bombers are Revolutionists in there own country fighting the Invader and fighting for what they believe. After all we bombed them they didnt bomb us. With the excuse of Sadam we killed inocent people, Mothers, Grandmothers, Pregnant women, Fathers and sons ect.
Yes TDI we are invaders not liberators. Sadam was an elected official and Iraq Governed with the power and ability Iraq had. Our last two elections were questionable...
You want to deny the fact that we are in fact a Democracy and our first goal is to provide basic rights of life as we have in our modern day society. Health Care, Education, Right of Chooice. All these things have been forced upon us as a need like driving a car and breathing air.
If these things arent provided as good as the presidents who swears to protect and serve and show compasion. Then we may as well live in a fuedal system.
Remember our Government wants to help a family making 150000 a year by giving them a loan for 1200. What does this tell you ? This tell me we are in deep shit.
Why does the Government use abortion as a tool it should be left to the person to decide if they want the responsibility to bring another life in a complex world, let them decide. People are kill the living to save or force a woman to give birth and also support a war that has killed and injured millions, this is hipocracy. I didnt see Right to lifers protesting the war, or the holy rollers.
-------------------------
Your really tapped. If for some reason your twisted sick mind thinks saddam was a just leader i highly suggest you go and admit yourself to a professional equiped to better deal with someone as mentally ill as you must be. You odviously have no idea what was going on over there and should absolutly not be trying to debate on this subject whatsoever. Such a idiotic statement makes me truly believe that you are speaking from some oraface far south of your mouth.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
February 1, 2008 - 11:04pm
#49
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
Quote:
Originally posted by: DieselCrazy
Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
O and just for clarifycation US soldiers will not fire on any unarmed civilians ever not even if ordered to do so as part of the general orders a soldier will never obey an illegal or immoral order as outlined in the geneva conventions. The same is true for targets of any types of US weapons. The same however is NOT true of suicide bombers and such. When terrorsits attacked the US embasys they killed 200 people 190of them were muslams of that nation. They kill indiscriminately.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
What do rules of war have to do with our country being a democracy. Iraq was not or has ever been an eminet threat.
We kicked the shit out of them in the first Gulf war and have had inspectors and regular bombings since that war.
Suicide bombers are Revolutionists in there own country fighting the Invader and fighting for what they believe. After all we bombed them they didnt bomb us. With the excuse of Sadam we killed inocent people, Mothers, Grandmothers, Pregnant women, Fathers and sons ect.
Yes TDI we are invaders not liberators. Sadam was an elected official and Iraq Governed with the power and ability Iraq had. Our last two elections were questionable...
You want to deny the fact that we are in fact a Democracy and our first goal is to provide basic rights of life as we have in our modern day society. Health Care, Education, Right of Chooice. All these things have been forced upon us as a need like driving a car and breathing air.
If these things arent provided as good as the presidents who swears to protect and serve and show compasion. Then we may as well live in a fuedal system.
Remember our Government wants to help a family making 150000 a year by giving them a loan for 1200. What does this tell you ? This tell me we are in deep shit.
Why does the Government use abortion as a tool it should be left to the person to decide if they want the responsibility to bring another life in a complex world, let them decide. People are kill the living to save or force a woman to give birth and also support a war that has killed and injured millions, this is hipocracy. I didnt see Right to lifers protesting the war, or the holy rollers.
-------------------------
Your really tapped. If for some reason your twisted sick mind thinks saddam was a just leader i highly suggest you go and admit yourself to a professional equiped to better deal with someone as mentally ill as you must be. You odviously have no idea what was going on over there and should absolutly not be trying to debate on this subject whatsoever. Such a idiotic statement makes me truly believe that you are speaking from some oraface far south of your mouth.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
You know
TDI you are sounding lke a right wing nut. Sadam was in power for over 20 years.
What do you know about wwhat was going on over there were you there. Do you really think Iraq is better off today w/o Sadam the with Sadam?
IIt was Sadan who built hospitals, roads, modernized its infrastructure, and kept every body in check.
And yes the country hd a police force and people were not being blown up like today....
Before Operation Iraqi Liberation Oil. Iraq had peace and
February 2, 2008 - 1:02am
#50
You are really the cook here DC to even attempt a defense for saddam is insanity. If you think for half of a second he was a fair and just ruler your not qualifyed to mention the word iraq nevermind attempt any thoughtful discussion on what is happening in iraq.
Just so you know saddam's tortures and murders and style of rule with a iron fist that made old school russia look compasionate was very well known and both os his son's were known for there cruelty also. One of them happened to have a thing for brides and enjoyed rapeing newlywed women then killing them and the new husband.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
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Anyone that believes there were no WMD's is a total and complete idiot.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html