Expected Service Life of a Raptor Pump RP-150
February 18, 2012 - 8:53pm
What would be the expected service life of a Raptor pump when used to lift veggie oil?
The pump motor runs HOT(as HOT as the heated veggie oil temp) most of the time. Heat is the enemy of an electric motor. My pump decided to retire before making one year of service. The psi output was fine (15-17psi for my application) when COLD. The psi output dropped to 5-10psi when HOT. Tried to adjust/set the pressure regulator screw at no avail.
Does anybody do something to try to keep the pump motor run cooler?
February 19, 2012 - 10:59am
#2
i'm on my 6th pump. they replace all of them. the most i got out of one pump was 35,000 miles. the last pump and 3 others blew the seal and lets fuel into the motor.
February 19, 2012 - 11:28am
#3
i'm on my 6th pump. they replace all of them.
Brain, was each one service less than one year?
They sent me a replacement without warranty certificate, so only one year warranty on the replacement.
Mine made 17000 miles.
February 19, 2012 - 1:22pm
#4
yes
February 20, 2012 - 8:23am
#5
What would happen if the rerurn loop of veggie was connected in after the lift pump and therefore did not receive the heat of the FPHE.
Brian Miller - I read a post about how you processed your dregs the very nasty stuff at the bottom of the tote after settling. What are you doing with that now?
February 20, 2012 - 8:41am
#6
well i dont have alot of bottoms anymore. I use a centi to clean my oil. and the bottoms i do have i mix with ground up corn cobs and burn it in my corn/pellet stove. I have used the bottoms to heat my house for 3 years now. but i use to take them to a friends house twice ayear and have a big bom fire.
February 20, 2012 - 11:14am
#7
"What would happen if the rerurn loop of veggie was connected in after the lift pump and therefore did not receive the heat of the FPHE."
Generally speaking the pump runs cooler.
You may have to deal with return line leaks since the connections might leak at the higher pressures.
These pumps fail prematurely when they are used in application that exceed their design limitations. So for maximum pump life you need to keep the VO entering them at a viscosity that is within those design limits AND below the maximum continuous operating temp of those limits.
Raptor is aparrently getting wise to the fact that some use their pumps in situations that (legally speaking) void the warentee but still invoke it time after time rather than modifying their conversion configuration to allow the pump to operate in temp and viscosity range it was designed for. They cannot make a profit if they honor warrentees that have in fact been voided by their customers. No one should expect them to.
Has anyone asked Raptor what it's pumps long term design limitations are for maximum viscosity and temperature?
February 20, 2012 - 11:51am
#8
yep, talked to Josh (raptor pump) alot. he wants 1 micron veggie at 160 degrees entering the pump. But from everyone i talked to its the seals going bad and lets fuel go into the electric motor. the reason you dont send your broken pump back anymore is because the seal is vacumed sealed now. so once it goes bad there is nothing you can do. I tried a new seal but it stills leaks
February 20, 2012 - 12:26pm
#9
I purchased a GC kit for my '99 Dodge in July '08. The following spring I pulled a 30 foot RV from western Washington state to Minneapolis, MN and had trouble with the Raptor pump all the way. It totally failed on the return home. I disassembled the motor end of the pump and found it full of "fried" veg oil. The brushes were seized in the holders by the cooked VO. I cleaned it up and dressed up the pitted armature (I think that's what it's called) and got a few more weeks out of it before failing again.
When I contacted GC they quickly sent me a replacement. The replacement lasted about one year. After contacting GC regarding the second failure, they wouldn't replace it and stated that I am the ONLY one they know of that has had problems with the Raptor. I contacted Pureflow and told them what happened with their pump and initially they said that they couldn't replace it under warrenty. I then purchased a $500 Fass pump locally to get back on the road and a few weeks later was surprised by a brand new replacement Raptor in the mail from Pureflow. I replaced the Fass with the Raptor because it has the pressure regulator.
This time I mounted the pump (horizontally) beside the valve cover (drivers side) over the FI high pressure lines using a bracket attached to studs welded on the ends of two adjacent valve cover bolts. I contacted GC and told them of the mod and how much cooler the pump runs but don't know it they made any changes to their installation manual for the 24 valve Dodge. I hope so as the pump has been running great since the modification in spite of pulling a 7000# trailer in 90 degree weather. I keep the Fass pump with me when I travel for a backup but haven't needed it.
February 21, 2012 - 9:56am
#10
"talked to Josh (raptor pump) alot. he wants 1 micron veggie at 160 degrees"
1 micron refers to the level of filtering that wvo has undergone..not viscosity. And 160F seems a bit high for a pump designed for diesel fuel. Gear pumps are usually pretty tolerant of high viscosity though so perhaps a slightly lower input temp might help the seal last longer. If anyone knows what the shaft seal is mde of I may be able to determine its long term operating design temp limit.
"But from everyone i talked to its the seals going bad and lets fuel go into the electric motor"
"The reason you dont send your broken pump back anymore is because the seal is vacumed sealed now."
From what I know of the Raptor pump the seal is not "vaccuum sealed" but rather the seal in the pump is under vaccuum during pump opration. This is in contrast to most pumps that place the shaft seal under pressure during operation.
That may be the key to avoiding the problem with VO infiltration into the motor section which it appears is the problem that folks who have disassembled their pumps (after they stopped working) seem to agree is THE problem.
If the pump shaft seal IS actually under vaccuum during operation any leaking past the seal can only happen AFTER the pump is shut off. So...if the pump is mounted so the motor section is above the pump section AND there is no line pressure in the pump after that VO should not be able to leak past that seal.
Since I obviously don't have a GC kit on my truck maybe someone can describe the configuration that GC uses with the Raptor pump so we can determine if the problem can be fixed with something as simple as an alternative mount or if the configuration needs to be changed slightly.
Is the Raptor pump purged of VO or left full of VO during shutdown?
February 20, 2012 - 6:59pm
#11
wow you know alot. let me know when your new pump comes out and how much they cost. trust me I can tell you havent called and talked to raptor. You don't know what your talking about. but again it sounds like you can build the greatest pump so let me know when you have it done. It's best to go with what the people (josh) at raptor tell you. most of what dana said goes against what Josh said.
February 21, 2012 - 8:54am
#12
Rabbit Man
Please post a picture of how you mounted your pump.
I replaced mine about 4 monthsand still put it in vertical,
How many miles do you have on the pump you have now?
February 21, 2012 - 9:55am
#13
"what dana said goes against what Josh said"
In what way Brian?
"it sounds like you can build the greatest pump"
I am not planning on building or selling a pump. It sounds like the Raptor should work just fine for this application if one can use it within it's design limitations.
"It's best to go with what the people (josh) at raptor tell you"
I agree.
Was the person you talked to Josh Ullrich?
February 21, 2012 - 1:39pm
#14
The following is how I routed my VO fuel system:
VO tank (via HIH) to heated VO filter; filter to Raptor VO pump; VO pump to FPHE; FPHE to 6 port series 98 GC solenoid valve; 6 port valve to IP.
Returns are routed from IP and fuel rails to 6 port valve; 6 port valve outlet to diesel tank return when on dino or looped back to VO fuel line at inlet side of Raptor pump.
I installed this VO conversion system on a 1999 Dodge at 124,000 miles and now have 190,000 miles. I had a VP44 failure at 155,000 miles which, I understand, isn't unusual for this series IP. I had a second VP44 failure at 175,000 miles after a trip from the west coast to Minneasota which I attribute to the Raptor stopping and dropping fuel pressure several time during the trip due to the high heat next to the turbo/exhaust. I might add that, after stopping, the pump would restart after a gentle smack with a 2X4 until a total failure half way back to the west coast. At this time I re-routed the VO fuel system as described above and moved the (new) Raptor pump to a cooler location as described earlier in this string.
Here's a photo of the new location: http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r230/twanohtom/P1010035.jpg
Note that the studs welded to the tops of the valve cover bolts that the homemade aluminum bracket is attached to have broken due to vibration. I am having new one-piece bolts machined and working on adding better support under the pump.
Before modification the pump was too hot to touch and now it's just warm.
February 22, 2012 - 1:18pm
#15
RabbitMan-
IMHO, I'd like to make the following observations, suggestions and recommendations: (1) from the pic, was the FASS pump also mounted on top of the engine? (2) place the VO fuel pump on the frame to avoid vibration and away from a heat source - to aid in keeping the pump motor cooler by using ambiant air (3) gravity feed to the pump - doesn't have to work so hard (4) install the FASS pump in the horizontal position with the weep hole facing down. I've been using the same FASS pump for over 6 yrs in my '80 MB 300D (daily driver) with no failures. I installed another FASS pump in my latest conversion - '69 Chevy 3/4 ton PU with a Perkins 6-354 ci mated to a Fuller 10 speed manual trans. Running on VO this week!
February 22, 2012 - 6:17pm
#16
I would agree with each of the suggestions RdL has made. These pumps are not designed to withstand the temps or vibration they are exposed to when mounted to a diesel engine. The vibration alone can significantly shorten their bearing and seal life in addition to being very hard on the motor windings and brushes.
And since the OP asked: "Does anybody do something to try to keep the pump motor run cooler?"
I would add that Raptor motors are not air cooled and so rely on the fuel being cool enough to dump excess heat into. The path this heat takes is through the shaft that connects the motor to the pump section and into the fuel. The warmer the fuel is the hotter that shaft is and the shorter the life expectancy of that seal. Raptor pumps are of the "gerotor" type (the same type used for sup oil pumps) and so can be expected to have some tolerance for fluide slightly more viscous than diesel fuel. If anyone has a Raptor pump that has run trouble free for a long time it is fairly simple to measure the fuel inlet temp they are running and use this as a guidline.
Who currently has a Raptor pump with the most miles on it?
Also...Does the Raptor have a "week hole" in the motor section?
If so it should always be mounted with the weep hole down and checked from time to time to make sure it is not clogged. If the Raptor doesn't have a weep hole it may require drilling one for long term operation on VO fuel.
Finally...there is supposed to be a screen in the inlet of the Raptor. If this clogs it may cause the motor to overheat. It may be prudent to only install the Raptor pump directly down stream of at least a "chunk catcher" filter with a visible screen that is easily checked. I suspect this is what may have killed Brians 6 Raptor pumps since he has repored major amounts of "poly" in his fuel tanks in earlier posts.
February 22, 2012 - 7:41pm
#17
Also...Does the Raptor have a "week hole" in the motor section?
Not sure.
If so it should always be mounted with the weep hole down and checked from time to time to make sure it is not clogged. If the Raptor doesn't have a weep hole it may require drilling one for long term operation on VO fuel.
Was informed by Raptor that the pump can be mounted in any position BUT NOT UPSIDE DOWN WITH THE MOTOR AT THE BOTTOM.
Finally...there is supposed to be a screen in the inlet of the Raptor.
Yes there is a screen.
My pump failed because of the weak motor when HOT. The seal was good, could be because the low pressure setting (15psi) for my application.
The new pump was relocated from the firewall above the exhaust manifold to the bay area between the radiator fan and the intake air horn assembly, on the driver side of the engine. It was mounted in a horizontal position. There is some improvement in motor temp. The motor housing temp was recorded 120-150F ( depending on outside temp + the winter front was still installed) when the oil temp was 175-180F. It was at the same temp as the oil temp before relocation.
February 22, 2012 - 10:20pm
#18
Sorry, typo.
Week hole should be Weep Hole
February 22, 2012 - 10:34pm
#19
Thanks Rene & Dana for the feedback and excellent suggestions.
was the FASS pump also mounted on top of the engine?
Yes, the Fass pump was mounted beside the valve cover just like the Raptor in the picture...in fact, the aluminum pump holder/bracket came with the FASS and fit the Raptor perfectly. I substituted the Raptor for the FASS because the FASS did not have a pressure regulator and the fuel pressure was running about 35 psi. Too much for my VP44 IP. Since I had the new Raptor in the shelf, I installed it and use the FASS as a fuel transfer pump for the 3 VO tanks on my Dodge. We have one heated 40 gallon "service tank", one 60 gallon unheated, and one 100 gallon unheated tank for a total of 200 gallons. Float switches automatically transfer fuel to the heated tank as needed. If the Raptor fails while on the road I can easily reinstall the FASS under the hood.
place the VO fuel pump on the frame to avoid vibration and away from a heat source - to aid in keeping the pump motor cooler by using ambiant air (3) gravity feed to the pump - doesn't have to work so hard.
Good idea but since mounting the Raptor as shown in the picture, it operates at a significantly cooler temperature. My Harbor Freight temperature detector gun crapped out so I can't tell you the exact temperature it's running at but at the old location beside the turbo it was hot enough to fry an egg on. Now it's just warm. Great point on the vibration issues. If you look closely at the photo I posted, you will see a 2 inch foam pad under the pump. I put this there when the modified valve cover bolt/studs broke at the weld. It has worked so well I haven't worried too much about it although I will consider the frame mount suggestion.
I just sold my 300CD (130K original miles) due to wife wanting a Jetta. Turned out the new Jetta can't burn veg or bio-diesel :-( Also sold the 92 F250 due to a really bad internal noise after I shot a dose of strarting fluid in a hot engine...I know, I know.....shouldn'd ever do that. Stalled on a busy highway with no shoulder and I panicked and got the can of ether out. Just finished converting an 89 F250 with a 120 gallon vacuum tank for my oil gathering truck. Those old 7.3's seem to love the veg.
Rene: My February trip to SD had to be cancelled but hope to get away in March. I'd sure like to attend one of the Greater SD Greasers meets, if possible.
Dana: Thanks again for the veg oil contact info in Minneapolis. Very nice person. He supplied us with plenty of good quality VO that got us back to the west coast.
February 23, 2012 - 11:07am
#20
My defective pump operated normal when COLD with 15psi output. The output dropped to 5-10 psi when HOT. The only visible find after disassembled the pump was a broken wave spring washer. The pump was mounted in a vertical upright position.
Any comment?
February 23, 2012 - 12:08pm
#21
"The pump was mounted in a vertical upright position."
With motor up and pump down?
"My defective pump operated normal when COLD with 15psi output."
This would seem to indicate that it can pump cool wvo. The question would then be "how hard is the motor working to do that?" That can probably be determined by measuring the electrical "draw" while one is pumping wvo at different temperatures. If the motor is drawing a lot more energy when pumping more viscous (cooler) wvo it may get too hot even with cool fuel to dump the heat into. It would be pretty easy to determine the optimum fuel inlet temp for VO this way.
Has anyone done this?
"The only visible find after disassembled the pump was a broken wave spring washer. "
If the motor was dry (no VO present) and there was a broken wave spring washer it would appear that the broken internal part was the reason for failure. Should have been covered under warrentee and "reset" original warrentee period.
February 23, 2012 - 6:23pm
#22
With motor up and pump down?
Yes.
This would seem to indicate that it can pump cool wvo. The question would then be "how hard is the motor working to do that?" That can probably be determined by measuring the electrical "draw" while one is pumping wvo at different temperatures. If the motor is drawing a lot more energy when pumping more viscous (cooler) wvo it may get too hot even with cool fuel to dump the heat into. It would be pretty easy to determine the optimum fuel inlet temp for VO this way.
Has anyone done this?
My pump started to pump WVO at 70F on the coldest days here. The oil temp would be 150F within 10 minutes. This 10 minutes operation should not overheat the motor. So the motor was getting the heat from the hot WVO.
"The only visible find after disassembled the pump was a broken wave spring washer. "
If the motor was dry (no VO present) and there was a broken wave spring washer it would appear that the broken internal part was the reason for failure. Should have been covered under warrentee and "reset" original warrentee period.
Everything looks good except the broken wave spring washer that goes on the motor drive shaft before the rotor (center piece) of the pump. Will contact AirDog about this issue.
February 23, 2012 - 7:56pm
#23
I've ran my pumps at different temp. I also thought on the first pump it was a temp problem. So after talking to raptor i mounted the next one on the frame (uninsulated). then when that one went raptor told me they wanted 1 micron wvo at 160 degrees. so then i mounted the next one on the engine like greasecar does. I also started using a centi to clean my wvo. on the last 2 or 3 pumps there is no weep hole on the bottom anymore because they started vacume sealing the pump seal.. turns out on all the pumps the seal gives out and fuel goes into the motor and also sucks air into the pump. Raptor is working on a better sealing system. the last pump I got now has about 10,000 miles on and and still working. I think they or someone should make the pump with a gap between the pump and motor. that way if the seal goes you dont ruin the motor and the seal would be easy to change. and just to let Dana know I havent had poly in YEARS...... ever since i went all platic. tank, fuel lines and everything i can. atleast 4 years now. the raptor pump is one of the best out there. I bought one just to play with a few years ago and that thing will suck(pump) lard. they just need a better seal system.
February 23, 2012 - 8:01pm
#24
I know this is not a pump that will work on my truck. But if they make the raptor pump set up like this i think it would be better
http://www.wvodesigns.com/monster-pump.html
February 24, 2012 - 7:37pm
#25
Brain, what's your pump pressure setting? I think you ran it at a much higher pressure (50psi?) than mine and the seal on each pump blew. In my case the failure was not pressure related. At this moment I don't think the broken spring washer caused the loss of pressure. I think the failure was temperature related. The pressure dropped when the pump housing was HOT to touch.
February 24, 2012 - 7:46pm
#26
yes with the powerstroke its 55psi. I was told not to change that so i dont anymore.. I had 1 with a broken spring and they sent me a new spring and i put both new springs in and the pump worked good untill the seal went out.
February 24, 2012 - 9:11pm
#27
http://advantageautodieselperformance.com/index.php?route=product/produc...
http://www.vegpower.com/order/prodpage.cfm?cat_selected=71&Product_Selec...
Is there somebody checked out or using those pumps???
February 25, 2012 - 7:51am
#28
thats the raptor pump i use
February 25, 2012 - 8:01am
#29
Good morning Gumpy!
Answer the phone!
February 25, 2012 - 9:24am
#30
Brian, I would like to know for sure if the "Josh" we talked to was the same person.
Was the person you talked to Josh Ullrich?
Vegg, The pressure dropped when the pump housing was HOT to touch.
Was it hotter than the VO temp?
February 25, 2012 - 11:47am
#31
[Vegg, The pressure dropped when the pump housing was HOT to touch.
Was it hotter than the VO temp?]
The same or a few degree higher than the veggie. The pump was mounted as per instruction on the top of the fire wall above the exhaust manifold, with very little ventilation under the hood.
I was informed by Air Dog that there should be a split on the wave spring washer, so this was not my pump problem. The problem was the motor, most likely the brushes and the commutator.
Also the one year warranty was only good on the original kit and NOT on the replacement pump. So I am on my own know!
February 25, 2012 - 1:18pm
#32
I dont remerber his last name . I only talked to him 10 times.. but i know if you call raptor in IN. and ask for Josh thats the only one working there. Or just tell the girl on the phone (julie i think) you want to talk to josh.
March 3, 2012 - 12:59am
#33
I run both of my trucks pumps on the frame rail. VP-44 at the front behind the bumper for pump and filter. The CR just below the tank. VO filter is next to tank. Maybe having your pump lower will take the stress off of it? In talking with FASS over the years, this is how they recommend off the frame rails. Less stress as gravity helps feed the vacuum (being lower than the tank), less vibration not near the engine and it gets a cooling effect from the wind running underneath while in motion down the road. 80K on the original FASS for the CR, and over 130K on the VP-44 Dodge. I did have one go out at 140K and FASS replaced no questions asked.
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My first Raptor 150 lasted only 16k. Just before the pump went out it started turning slower and loosing pressire. It was replaced by Raptor under warranty. They did not have me to return the bad pump but they changed my lifetime warranty to only one year because I was running veg. This is disappointing because I bought the greasecar kit with a better warranty :(
After getting to my shop and installing the new pump I decided to open the electric motor to see what if anything but a bad motor and heat had killed it WOW It was FULLL of veg oil!
I decided to move my pump so it was not located as near the exhaust manifold. and moved it to the side of the inner fender to keep the external heat away.
Helped some but as you said the oil temps cause the pump housing to heat up. I added a valve and line to the tank in the fuel line loop so that I can redirect the return hot oil over 185 degrees to the veg tank. This is still an experiment and I won't know until the weater heats up or the pump goes out again if it's working.
Who else has this problem and what have you done?
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