hmmmmm
January 7, 2006 - 10:32pm
DanaLinScott
I have to chime in here.
Competition is good.
But so many folks who have one or two conversions under their belt seem to feel expert enough to go into the VO conversion business it is definately NOT GOOD.
I too feel we should help one another...but the help usually flows one way when a newbie goes into business. And customers suffer since few established VO conversion businesses take time to adequately research thier products....let alone those new to the field...who tend to rush really poorly designed stuff onto the market to grab a share.
Has every one forgotton Lovecraft conversions?
A classic example of what I am talking about.
Does not have a clue he is causing way more harm than good.
Forrest on the GC forum is another great example.
Way behind the cutting edge..but when he "discovers" a design that does work he assumes he has discovered it before anyone else. And without any real research presents it to the public. Again..blissfully ignorant of the harm he is doing or choosing to ignore it.
In both cases these newbies feel very defensive when informed that they are ripping off designs, providing really bad information, or giving advice that prior research has shown will cause harm. So defensive they keep right on doing it.
How is that good for the VO fuel community?
I go way out of my way to help new businesses that I feel (based on their knowledge of VO technology) will benefit the VO community as a whole. Those that appear to be following Greasels or Lovecrafts example do not recieve my support.
Yes..I discriminate..based upon what the main mission and capabilities of the prospecitive VO fuel based business. Is that a bad thing?
__________________
from dana also....
Fine...
I would appreciate you not posting pics or descriptions though. And please remove the pics on the GC forum.
Your pics are so similar to my Glowplug heater I have a very hard time believeing that you have not had something more than just the descriptions on the forums. But even if that is what you used to develop the new glowplug design it is an infringement. I did not mind you previous design..but the new one is so nearly identical I feel it is infringing on my design file. I am sure you do not wnat ot do that.
Dana
Brian Miller wrote:
i have never seen any of your designs. none of them. things i post is things
i come up with or read about and make them better. sorry if you feel you
feel that way. again i have never seen you plans for anything..
>From: Dana Linscott
>To: VeggieBurner@hotmail.com
>Subject: Glowplug heater
>Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:53:01 -0800 (PST)
>
>Hey Forrest...
> You ripped off my design and posted it on the Grease Car forum.
>
> One of my customers contacted me to let me know.
>
> Not Cool.
> Not cool at all.
>
> Dana
>
>
-------------------------
Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
January 8, 2006 - 12:57am
#2
dana isn't getting rich doing this...i hear u about not paying for something that u could build urself...but i for one would NOT have thought to make a glow plug heater like this if i had i never seen one. it is creative and not just a fly by night design. dana worked hard, i am sure, to come up with the right snap disc to use how many, etc...dana uses his money to continue researching VO..he shares his knowledge freely...u can't tell me he doesn't put loads of time to help newbies along...to help them be successful running VO...i am happy to have paid dana for those plans...the money, after all, is reinvested in research that helps me, you and anyone else who reads what dana has to say....and even if u don't read it from him directly the things he learns spreads around like wildfire so that u will catch wind of his research one way or another if u hang around the VO forum crowd....design something new, expand on dana's idea, add a power control system that is affordable and easy to build...sell that, not exactly waht dana has done....make the little devil better with a new innovative idea. respectfully-Nick
January 8, 2006 - 5:08am
#3
Forrest, keep up the good work. I'm sure your posts have helped many Greasers, and you don't ask for anything in return. I always look forward to seeing another project from you.
Ryan
January 8, 2006 - 5:05am
#4
Seems to me we have another round of grease experts who are fueding. Happened with Goowin and Anderson, now Linscott and Miller (Forrest's real name).
IMHO you cannot claim to have invented much of this technology as burning grease has been around since Rudolph first did it and possibly he got the idea from someone else. Grease wasn't the first thing he tried to run his engine on.
It doesn't take a genius to come up with the improvements to burning grease, just someone with a little mechanical knowledge, a good grip of science and the time/willingness to tinker till they get the result they want. The fact that people are coming up with similar or very similiar ideas is no suprise. People on this and other forums are sharing ideas all the time. Forrest, Tom M or Dana give alot of what they design away to those who want to use it. In fact Forrest doen't sell anything grease related. He may not perform scientifically correct research but he goes by an old principle, if it works and works how I want, I will not listen to those who say it won't. Sure...he may get bitten in the rear when he gets an unexpected outcome later on but he generally keeps his risk's too a minimum. We should all understand this is experimental and if you want any guarantees....go buy a gasser.
You think people are copying your designs? Then don't share them here or elsewhere. Make them buy them but just be aware it is the American ideal to take something that someone charges for and make it yourself and improve it. It would be unethical for them to copy an idea and then profit from it but nothing wrong with sharing how to make it.
-------------------------
Steve M
1985 300SD (Benny)
Using what other people throw away in a dumpster for your personal use makes you a BUM! Selling what other people throw away in a dumpster makes you a GENIUS! Go figure.
January 8, 2006 - 7:05am
#5
Darn... It would have been alot cheeper to buy dana's plans. My wife said i have spent over $600.00 on making glow plug heaters ever since i seen Tom's glow plug heater. Just think about that guys. it would have been cheeper to buy Dana's plans. If you would have followed all my post on making them. You will see how much i Spent. Now i wish i would have seen or bought his plans. It would have been alot cheeper. But then again what fun is that.....Life is to short..
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Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
January 8, 2006 - 7:04am
#6
Welcome to As The Grease Burns.
January 8, 2006 - 7:49am
#7
Quote:
Originally posted by: ForrestGump
Darn... It would have been alot cheeper to buy dana's plans. My wife said i have spent over $600.00 on making glow plug heaters ever since i seen Tom's glow plug heater. Just think about that guys. it would have been cheeper to buy Dana's plans. If you would have followed all my post on making them. You will see how much i Spent. Now i wish i would have seen or bought his planes. It would have been alot cheeper. But then again what fun is that.....Life is to short..
-------------------------
Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
If somebody actually builds and sells a product, people will copy it and share the info. What's the big deal in that case? That's life in this world. What difference is it when somebody simply copies the same idea from a piece of paper (or PDF, or whatever)? If somebody were to make a copy of that piece of paper, or take a file or plan verbatim, and sell it as his own, that would be wrong, or 'uncool'. To claim some type of priviledge or exemption from these natural laws of free-flowing information because somebody thinks they came up with an idea first (or are special, or a godsend to the WVO world) is simply asking for a good ol' boy form of subsidy - 'If you were a good greaser you'd play by these rules'. Sorry that doesn't fly. If somebody's Hot Shit product is such a great idea, let them patent it and make a living selling the product. Oh that's right, anybody can copy any patented idea they want for their own use as long as they don't sell it. If somebody wants to reap the marketing advantages of the Internet, they also have to deal with it's potential disadvantages, i.e., instant dissemination of info. You can't have it both ways. WVO is an idea whose time is come. If certain people think the WVO world will cease to exist because they aren't blessing it with their expertise and ideas, they're only kidding themselves. Their ideas are appreciated, but if they think the WVO realm is their private little domain, they will be buried. We will find a way. If somebody wants to make money at this, let them come up with a good business idea and don't complain when others copy their ideas, for that's the nature of the beast. And do you really suppose the experts didn't learn what they know by copying others ideas?
January 8, 2006 - 9:17pm
#8
I see that Forrest has decided to selectivly post some of the emails we sent each other. Which has apparrently provided the slanted view he wished it to.
The design is copyrighted.
The income derived from it ..and the other how to files I sell is all earmarked exclusivly for research. Copying it and sharing it for profit or fun really helps no one but Forrest..who can then claim "I came up with this on my own"..yeah..right.
So Forrest...you spent over $600 but did not even do a rudimentary search fo the VO forums for "Glow Plug Heater"? Sure.
I can almost believe that since you do so little in the way of real research before declaring you have another GREAT IDEA that is proven to work. Problem is that having teted most of them years ago I know many of "your ideas" don't work well..or cause more damage than good.
And your misinformation is not limited to this forum. It tends to leak out to all the forums eventually and cause mischief where ever it goes.
If folks want to think up NEW and better ways to improve VO conversion I encourage it. No really...I actually help wuite a few new folks that want to go into busineress in VO conversion. But only ones I feel are ethical, honest, adn willing to do what it takes to produce a qauility product. Thismeans serious research and testing.
I share a huge amount fo my time and profit (from my main business) to helping newbies successfully convert thier diesels..and providing well researched info to the VO community. I could easily double myincome if I were to devote the time money I spend on that to profit making activity. This woudl leave the VO community depending more and more on folks like Forrest who prove daily that they really do not know what they are doing....but are willing to present themselves as VO conversion experts.
I really only ask one thing in return for providing well researched info and well tested designs.
Please don't rip them off.
By doing so you are not making yourself richer..or me poorer...but you are diminishing the resources devoted to serious VO conversion research.
Forrest...if you want to research something..research something NEW...something not already discovered or developed. This in itself will take a little research to make sure that you are not just duplicating something that someone else already researched/developed years before.
Discovering something new would represent a great benefit to the VO community. What you do now is is exactly the oppposite.
Of course developing something that does not already exist has a risk that copying or "re-discovering" something you know already exists does not. You could fail.
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danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 8, 2006 - 10:12pm
#9
Dana,
A copyright pertains to form of expression, not its subject matter. Any and everybody is free to copy 'your' design, dessiminate info regarding it, build and sell as many as they want, and write their own "How to build a glow-plug heater" file and sell it as long as they don't copy and distribute your description. Basically all your copyright protects is the description. In other words, people are not allowed to copy and disseminate the wording of your 'How To' file. That's all.
January 8, 2006 - 10:37pm
#10
Dana is eloquent. I'll give him that. He also is out of touch if he thinks he has the only rights to anything he comes up with, as others have also (see above heater from Dieselworks).
Dana has always been a voice of reason here when you have some people making claims that were incorrect or even outrageous and I for one respectnhis opinion but this is more a matter of someone feeling ripped off because someone else came up with something like his or for all I know even copied it. The fact is however, any and all grease improvements will be seen if posted for fun or profit. We all will look at it for merit and if is seems to have potential we will either buy it or copy it for ourselves. we will make improvements to it and share with our friends. That is the nature of greasing.
Sorry Dana, I have to say you are being unreasonable and don't have a leg to stand on in this case. Forrests designs are too simple to claim he stole them and couldn't possibly have come up with it on his own. And that's all I have to say about that!
-------------------------
Steve M
1985 300SD (Benny)
Using what other people throw away in a dumpster for your personal use makes you a BUM! Selling what other people throw away in a dumpster makes you a GENIUS! Go figure.
January 8, 2006 - 11:18pm
#11
"Sorry Dana, I have to say you are being unreasonable and don't have a leg to stand on in this case. Forrests designs are too simple to claim he stole them and couldn't possibly have come up with it on his own. And that's all I have to say about that!"
Actually as simple as the design is he did not claim he came up with it on his own in the emails he sent me. Someone else "gave it to him". If he is claiming now that he came up with it on his own....well I know better...and so does he.
My "case" is that re-discovering others designs and posting them on open forums does not help the VO community in the long run. Doing so may make Forrest feel good..but that is about it. Personally I find it very discouraging that some folks feel it is perfectly OK to claim others work as your own.
I accept that the designs I developed will get ripped off occasionally. In most cases this has been in the form of folks re-selling copies of my files on Ebay. That is relativly easy to counter since they are copyrighted. In a few other instaces individuals have decided purchasing my files give them the right to openly post the info wherever they wish. In all othe cases the forum owners/moderators have chosen to delete the posts and warn the posters to not do that without my having the ask. They recognize the contribution I make on a constat basis and look to the long term viability of VO fuel rather than the short term.
I have not and will not contact the owners/moderators of this forum to ask that Forrests potings regarding my design be removed or he be prohibited from posting them. I notified Forrest that I felt it was not cool that he had done so dn requested that he act in a professional manner. He chose to claim that he had not ripped off my design...he had gotten it from another. The fact is he did not come up with this design himself..and has no way to be certain that the person who "gave it to him" did not directly rip it off from my how to file. Is he really claiming now that he come up with it on his own? I had no problem with his earlier cruder Glowplug heater pictures...after all they were obviously not direct copies of my design...similar but different. Only when the design was an obvious copy did I request he act more honestly. Instead he has apparently chosen to act less honestly.
Tell me Forrest..and the others who think it is OK to post a copycat design as long as it is "discovered independently"...would it still be OK to post the info if Forrest got it directly from my how to file? How about if he had seen a unit made by someone who bought my how to file and just backward engineeered it? How about if someone sent him pictures of a unit made using my how to file.
Is there a line that gets crossed? Or is any information "OK to share" via the web as long as it is not charged for.?
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danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 9, 2006 - 12:36am
#12
---------------------------------------------
Tell me Forrest..and the others who think it is OK to post a copycat design as long as it is "discovered independently"...would it still be OK to post the info if Forrest got it directly from my how to file? How about if he had seen a unit made by someone who bought my how to file and just backward engineeered it? How about if someone sent him pictures of a unit made using my how to file.
Is there a line that gets crossed? Or is any information "OK to share" via the web as long as it is not charged for.?
---------------------------------------------
Well, yeah, there are several lines that could get crossed, purposely or accidentally. Some of these lines are precise, others blurry. Do you have a patent on your design? If not, and if your plans were not posted verbatim, then there were no legal lines crossed. Ethical lines? If Forrest peeked at your design and called it his own, shame on him. If he saw someone else's implimentations of your design, and unwittingly used the idea to make his own variation and then shared it - well...that kind of stuff happens. But crimeny, the guy is CONSTANTLY putting out posts of ideas, and you can see the ideas evolving as they go - sometimes hour by hour. I don't find it hard to believe that he could have independantly come up with a near identical design as yours.
You seem to have a much more scientific approach - come up with an idea, test the crap out of it, then sell it if it works. Forrest seems to come up with an idea, posts it, then quickly slaps it together and later tells us how well it worked, if at all. I've gotten some good info from both you guys, and hope you both continue to innovate. But Dana, if you really want to continue to sell your plans, I would suggest hiring a good patent attorney. Otherwise, right or wrong, accidental or on purpose, there's not a lot you can do about it.
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'84 300D 5-speed sedan
greasecar with add-ons
Bozeman, MT
January 9, 2006 - 8:20am
#13
Gentlemen, I don't think anybody has any right to cry about "copying" unless there is an existing patent with the US Patent Office for the device(s) or system(s) in question. Is there? Haven't read anybody citing them.
In the jewelry business you see the same types of designs over and over no matter where you go to buy jewelry. The stones may be different, but the designs really don't vary that much. People in the jewelry business understand this because they cannot "patent" their designs. It's art, and comes from people's imaginations. I think that may be where we are with the situation between Forrest and Dana.
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Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
January 9, 2006 - 8:27am
#14
my point here is. if you would have followed my post on the glow plug heater. my 1st post states that i seen Tom M glow plug heater and i told him i can't make one like that but i can make it out of plumbing pipe. it started out big and ended up small. i guess thats when dana thought i coppied his. ( those are the only 2 e-mail me and dana have. i didnt change anything in them.). neither Tom nor me have ever seen dana's glow plug. Tom like me started by putting the glow plugs in the filter head. i gave up because the glow plug burned out. Tom said it was from air. but Tom kept working on it till he came up with the block heater he makes and uses. I think Tom and I both got the idea from a german web site. ( i bet dana did too). as far as steping on toes. this whole grease idea is stepping on toes if you want to look at it that way. But in 1991 i had a tool bizz. designing and manufacturing and marketing set tools for the Modular home bizz. I spent over $6000.00 to get a patent on my Z-Hook to pull the house togeather. and from there i made 6 more tools to help with the set up. 6 months later a tool company with alot more money then me drill 2 extra holes in my design and started selling my tools. another $2000.00 later to a lawyer who told me there is nothing we can do. Lesson to be learned.......
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Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
January 9, 2006 - 10:20am
#15
I too have patented ideas.
I am not discussing a legal line when I ask "Is there a line". I am discussing an ethical line. The ethical line is firmly drawn on other forums...not here. Essentially because the forum is more or less unmoderated. But so are others that the participants moderate themselves...and the ethical line remains in pretty much the same place.
I could easily produce and market VO related products that others in the "industry" market. I choose not to since I feel it would harm rather than help the VO community. I know I cannot hold others to the same standard I hold myself...ut was curious if this particular forums participants feel etchics should be an issue or not. I realize that many are only interested in the short tem or thier own interests...but was not sure what the "mix" is here.
It is easy enough to check if anyone else has laready developed an idea or product before embarking on a "re-development project. This is part of ehical behvaior. Forrest just expalined how he was the victim of essentially unethical behavior by a competitor with more resources slightly changing a deveice and repatenting it. He did not feel it was ethical when done to him...but now that the shoe is on the other foot appears to feel OK about it.
So..rather than whining ...it's not fair..I am asking. What level of ethics should we expect in this industry and if the answer is "hardly any" what do folks feel the long term consequences will be?
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danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 9, 2006 - 10:49am
#16
I guess I will chime in here and give my 2 cents.
Forrest,
If dana feels like you ripped off one of his designs,and has asked you not to post your how-to-build directions, don't you think you should remove your posts telling people how to build it? I do.
You could just as easily refer people to dana's web site to get the file for themselves. Or if you don't want to be ethical about it email it or pm it to them off of the forums and completely avoid all of this controvesy.
I feel like you(forrest) may chase dana off of this forum all together and personally I don't think your ready to fill his shoes. Dana is IMHO the best source of information that has graced the pages of the greasecar forums in the year or so that I have been here, even if it is not always that graceful(like now).
Please don't chase him off plenty of us out here want or need his help to keep our little projects going without snafu's left and right. If you want this forum to be a good place for actual knowledge, why not make a little concession and try to keep the real greasemaster here to help us all. If your happy discuss batteryboys marriage or whether or not he drinks acetone, no free 50 gal. drums, what kind of car should I get, look here's my car with snow on it, jetta with a bunk of plywood on it then maybe the name of the forum should be changed cause that is the bulk of what we're getting since dana left and started posting occasionally instead all the time, this is the grease board people.
January 9, 2006 - 12:14pm
#17
I have a hard time with this, I watched all of Forest's posts and it wa clear to me he developed this on his own.
Some time back I read about a glow plug heater, so in my own mind I played with the idea and bought some parts to make one. I also picked up some junk stuff. I was ammazed when I did see one of Dana's "How to Files", my "design" was almost the same thing. I had never seen his file, would I have been wrong to post a picture of mine?
I am just now getting into doing a conversion on a car, however, I have know about the ideas and seen conversions for more than 12 years. Ideas have been brewing for all that time. Maybe you all are copying MY ideas?
I guess what I am getting at is if someone says "I installed a Humbug valve and it works great" someone will take that idea and run with it and make there own design. It may end up looking exactly the same. If they post a picture of that design, is it wrong?
Just from the title "glow plug heater" there is only so much leway. Most glow plugs are the same design, and there are only so may plumbing fittings out there for cheap to work with. It is bound to happen that to tinkerers come up with the same design.
I feel both Dana and Forest contribute to the forums. I hope both stay and both continue to contribute.
Even if Forest posts some real crap sometimes, we learn from what he does and save money by not doing it that way. I may post ideas from time to time that is crap too. This forum is sometimes used as a sounding board, you will see flaws in my ideas and hopefully tell me so.
While I hope I never post something that is a copy of Dana's plans, it is possible and I have no intent of ripping him off. Sorry in advance.
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82 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Diesel
Working on home-brew cheap conversion
January 9, 2006 - 12:38pm
#18
nappy nate
the way most people on here look at this forum is ..
the grease board is a general board..
the tech board is for asking why pump quit working. i almost never post on the tech board. and the people you are talking about don't post there either. if you read both boards when people don't get a reply from the tech board they post here..
as far as taking down my post of the glow plug.. I would but now there is alot of them and Dana never asked me to.. the only e-mails that i have gotton from dana was the ones i posted. he didnt tell which glow plug to remove i have atleast 5 on here. and all he said was it was uncool.. i thought he was mad because i stole his design. as you can tell by my return e-mail i told him i have never seen his design and i am sorry if he feels that way..I have e-mailed dana in the past about zinc. he never replyed back. as you can tell. I am not mad at anybody, never was, not even Black grease. i enjoyed talking to BG. I thought it was fun. but he started things that i wanted to see if he could finish.(take what you dish out) but thats a diff. story and i already told Lee and everyone here i was sorry and won't do it again. And I haven't.. the glow plug heater and other things are posted on my Blog and web site. those will stay...all i try to do is throw out ideas and see what we all can do with them.. eric or someone took an idea i had and made it work when i didn't make it work. (hope he didnt burn down his house). I f this is wrong again i am sorry. i would leave this forum but i get e-mails asking me to stay. and i have ALOT of fun with all this grease stuff. yes it is fun but then again it makes me $25,000.00 ayear.. and saves me $3000.00 ayear. i also invest in this grease stuff. I test alot of stuff. when i first tried this i bought a $200.00 chevy diesel truck to see if you really can burn wvo in it . and wow you can. then i bought a $2300.00 92 ford and drove it on veggie for 33,000 miles . then a 97 powerstroke with 60,000 miles on veggie and still running stong!!! ( and the benz and generator) now my wife got a $30,000.00 ford to run on veggie. Damn i think i did put in some time and money??????? and with me i even post when things go wrong or don't work...who else does that??? anybody?? when most people have things go wrong they just don't post it or don't get on here anymore.. I notice on other forum people post thing that went wrong and right away others say it is from running veggie. how do you know maybe that pump was bad, maybe those 200,000 mile injectors were ready to be replaced. maybe someone ran No. 3 diesel for 50,000 miles with no heater.. to give you a good example. when i got on this forum people told new people to go buy high price filter and head to filter there veggie. i said just use GE whole house water filter....hmmmmm i am not saying it was my idea. but i thought of it while i was changing the filter in my hot tub..anyways i need to go to the garage and filter more veggie.... Brian Miller... AKA ForrestGump
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Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
January 9, 2006 - 4:10pm
#19
forrest,
having read this thread, it looks like dana is asking you to remove them in the e=mail that you posted for all of us to read. How can you claim that he hasn't, it right up their and you posted it.
Theres so many that you can't go to the trouble to remove all five of them , come on man that sounds like a cop out to me.
Yeah right your the only one posting your failured experiments, where do you come up with this stuff and why?
January 9, 2006 - 4:42pm
#20
"I have a hard time with this, I watched all of Forest's posts and it wa clear to me he developed this on his own. "
Actually he has admitted he did not.
Nor can he say with any certainty that the person who provided the design in question did not directly rip it off from my file.
Both are strictly speaking competitors..and at least one sells a competeing design. In strictly business terms this is an unethical attack on my buisiness. I have to this point not felt that Forrest has posted the design in order to hurt my profit..and so have preferred to discuss the possability of handling this in a friendly and ethical manner. Those folks whi in the past were clearly aware they were ripping me off were dealt with very differently.
I continue to attempt to handle this in as friendly a manner as possible. Forrest has agreed to discuss this off list and not post the private emails regarding this. So at this point I am hoping we can reach an agreement that will satisfy us both on this matter.
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danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 9, 2006 - 6:03pm
#21
Dana,
I guess I wasn't clear enough the first time. Let me try again.
You no more own that glow-plug heater design than you own the air you exhale. If you don't own something, how can somebody else take it away from you?
The free-flow of ideas is what best serves the WVO community, not their restriction. IMO, you are attempting to restrict access to ideas for the sake of your own agenda. If you need money to fund that agenda, please do so the way others are doing it - BY PRODUCING A PRODUCT. That way you won't run the risk of hurting the WVO community by engendering ill will through manipulative bickering to lay exclusive claim to something that belongs in the public domain.
January 9, 2006 - 5:11pm
#22
I've read articles on glow plug heaters from Aug 2001 and a posting from Ed Beggs back in 2002 where he discussed playing with glow plug heaters before developing the VegTherm. Dana's going to have to show a timeline of development if he wants to claim full credit for it.
Here's an old thread on glow plug heaters...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/613601161...
It looks like a pretty independent discussion - I don't see Dana or his plans anywhere in the discussion. Dana - if you can show some sort of evidence that you came up with this earlier and these people were referencing your ideas - more power to you. If not - I'd suggest NOT pushing any ethics complaints too much.
I've never bought Dana's plans - and had only seen a pathetically crafted glow plug heater on ebay before devising the two pretty units that are sitting in front of me - waiting to go in to my latest diesel. I have only seen ForrestGump's implementation AFTER building my own glow plug heaters. Reading about his adventures has been informative - I didn't copy anything that he did, but I know a lot more about what to expect when I get these things installed.
What Forrest brings to the table that Dana doesn't is the full workup of his experimentation. Dana says "Do it my way and everything will be good". For those people that like to turn off their brains (if they ever get started in the first place!) - this is what they need. Odds are they will never experiment with anything new anyway - they will continue to order the plans and be happy. The rest of us are free to experiment ourselves with ideas. Some of those ideas will be better, some won't be. The journey is worth almost as much as the discovery though - so Run Forrest, Run! Keep up the good work. Just out of curiousity - have you tried dewatering via vacuum yet? I'd sell you my plans, but it's much more entertaining and informative to watch you come up with things! Warm oil, vacuum - no water. 'nuf said. I wouldn't want to taint the experiment...
Dana - consider retiring some of those designs - at least something as simple as the glow plug heater. If your design isn't at least 5 years old, it's probably copied as well. If it is older than that - it's been a good run and the secret is out anyway. As more and more curious and inventive people become involved, you'll see all of the good ideas published anyway - and many more new ones come out. The genie will NOT go back in the bottle now.
January 9, 2006 - 10:00pm
#23
Look guys. I am not claiming credit for glow plug heaters in general. Only a specific design. One specific design..get it?
When Forrest was presenting his own designs I had no beef. They were HIS OWN DESIGNS. When he presented MY DESIGN I took offense.
Is that clear enough?
Friar,
I believe it will be much harder to advance the technology of VO conversions without some ethical restraints on design pirating. here it is 3 years after my original release of that particular design and Forrest was still not all that close to duplicating it. Until someone else provided him with a copy of my design.
I have come a LONG way in the interim..and new innovations are soon to be released. But rather than release them in the form of easy to fabrbicate components for th DIYer maybe i shoudl hold on to them, patent them, and eventually release them in product only form. I have always felt that providing support for the DIY was a good way to support the VO community...but if it is OK to pirate my specific designs rather than provide $15-20 for the use fo these designs..which then goes to support even more real research into VO technology...maybe I shoudl rething this approach.
Now ..as I said Forrest/Brian and I are in the process of off forum discussion on the matter. Give it a rest OK?
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danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 9, 2006 - 10:29pm
#24
Quote:
Originally posted by: danalinscott
Look guys. I am not claiming credit for glow plug heaters in general. Only a specific design. One specific design..get it?
When Forrest was presenting his own designs I had no beef. They were HIS OWN DESIGNS. When he presented MY DESIGN I took offense.
Is that clear enough?
Friar,
I believe it will be much harder to advance the technology of VO conversions without some ethical restraints on design pirating. here it is 3 years after my original release of that particular design and Forrest was still not all that close to duplicating it. Until someone else provided him with a copy of my design.
I have come a LONG way in the interim..and new innovations are soon to be released. But rather than release them in the form of easy to fabrbicate components for th DIYer maybe i shoudl hold on to them, patent them, and eventually release them in product only form. I have always felt that providing support for the DIY was a good way to support the VO community...but if it is OK to pirate my specific designs rather than provide $15-20 for the use fo these designs..which then goes to support even more real research into VO technology...maybe I shoudl rething this approach.
Now ..as I said Forrest/Brian and I are in the process of off forum discussion on the matter. Give it a rest OK?
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
With all respect, I think you do need to rethink your approach. I can't tell you how much your veiled, manipulative threatenings toward Forrest pissed me off. Not to mention all of the denigrating assumptions you've made about him. You've got a lot of nerve accusing Forrest of being uncool in your email, when I think you really took the cake for that today. I personally think it's quite hypocritical of you to claim that you have the VO community's best interest at heart (a community based on sharing information) while adopting an attitude that you have a right to stifle something that is basically public domain knowledge. You own a copyright, remember? Not a patent. Very important difference. That copyright protects your document, the arrangement of words, diagrams, etc. But in no way does it prevent others from using 'your' design to build it. Nor does it prevent them from taking 'your' design and creating a help file in their own words. So with all due respect, I think all will be better served if you adopt additional methods of funding your research that are more in line with your stature in this community, as opposed to relying on a method that tempts you to engage in such inappropriate behavior. OK, I've had my say. I'll let it rest.
January 10, 2006 - 7:40am
#25
I finally found the reference I was looking for:
MICHELANGELO and RAPHAEL
They were contemporaries and important contributors to art, but they became rivals. Mick thought Raphael was a punk treading on his territory. Raph started out wanting to learn from Mick but realized that Mick would never take him seriously and that he would have to go his own way.
If Mick had just given even *half* an inch, he would have had a devoted friend and supporter for life. But he was stubborn and half-crazy anyways, so that never happened.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
January 10, 2006 - 8:42am
#26
Mother Knowledge
January 10, 2006 - 8:44am
#27
Well put Swimgym.
Parallel ideas ,seems like great minds think alike huh.
Danas just a little arrogant though ,thats the only reason Im not a follower or buyer of his online wears. If he would come down off his MOUNTAIN of ,Im the greatest wvo inventor ,literary, filtration designer in the grease community ,PERIOD ,then I would feel more communitive with a person like that.Forrest ,I feel is doing a great service to the gc community by letting us in to his thoughts as he develops new ideas .Its inspiring to feel part of the process ,maybe thats a lesson to Dana ,dont feel threatened by new ideas that help others here, its the end result that is going to make us all better on this forum.
January 10, 2006 - 9:47am
#28
January 10, 2006 - 12:53pm
#29
"I can't tell you how much your veiled, manipulative threatenings toward Forrest pissed me off."
How in the world can you say that. Other than the highly "manifulative" and slanted interpretations that Forrest has provided of our private communications do you have any idea of how straitforward I have been with him. Without any reciprocation I might add.
What exactly have I threatened Forrest with?
"I personally think it's quite hypocritical of you to claim that you have the VO community's best interest at heart (a community based on sharing information) while adopting an attitude that you have a right to stifle something that is basically public domain knowledge"
Here is where our underssandin diverges.
I belevie that the VO community benefits most by the development of NEW VO technology and info. Freel sharing info is the majority of what I do.
When someone shares info that is faulty and I KNOW is likely to cause harm I urge caution. When someone freely shares info similar to what I have developed can chosen to charge for to support more reasearch I remain silent.
However...when someone publishes info on info obviously pirated from that info I choose to charge for I take exeption.
Publishing pirated info tends to suppress research.
The VO community is served well by the explosion of knowledge that has ocurred int he last 4 years.
Encouraging sharing of any and all information developed by those willing to spend the time and money to develop them only encourages those that mak the initial investment ot not make this info available in a form that can be easily used by those who wish to hav a VO conversion but cannot afford to buy a kit.
Suppression of cautionary info (as appears to be your theme) leads to unnecesary damage to converted engine..which then tend to be attributed to VO fuel use in general rather than the steep learing curve required when newbies have no good bassi for theire conversions or acces to those with enugh knowledge to provide teimely cautions.
Finally THIS seems to be a major casue of confusion.
"I am sorry that you feel Forrest is stealing your ideas"
I have no problem At ALL with folks using my concepts/ideas.
I only object when they directly COPY my specifc design.
Let me be clear.
The idea of a glowplug VO heater is common enough to be considered "common public knowledge".
The simple, cheap , and effective design I developed was not.
If Forrest HAD come up with the SAME design (as he originally claimed..but later recanted) I would have simply let it pass. But he clearly did NOT.
Yes..the dsign is simple.
That was a main criteria when I developed it.
Was it so simple that once you see it you say to yourself "I could have come up with THAT"? Yes!
The fact that so few have..and in this case Forrest did not....is what originally stimulated me to request he not post what he did not come up with himself. The fact that he chaose to react by posting misleading info about how I have tried to deal with this is what has led me to determine the only way to deal with it is as I have all other piracy I have had to deal with.
I wish Forrest were more forthcomming and less misleading on this subject. In fact I wish I had not given him the opportuinty to mislead this forum by attempting to deal with this in an open and friendly manner.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 10, 2006 - 1:20pm
#30
Quote:
Originally posted by: chasinthesun
Well put Swimgym.
Parallel ideas ,seems like great minds think alike huh.
Danas just a little arrogant though ,thats the only reason Im not a follower or buyer of his online wears. If he would come down off his MOUNTAIN of ,Im the greatest wvo inventor ,literary, filtration designer in the grease community ,PERIOD ,then I would feel more communitive with a person like that.Forrest ,I feel is doing a great service to the gc community by letting us in to his thoughts as he develops new ideas .Its inspiring to feel part of the process ,maybe thats a lesson to Dana ,dont feel threatened by new ideas that help others here, its the end result that is going to make us all better on this forum.
Good Lord!
I am not the "greatest" anything.
I have spent more time and money deveolping info that is freely shared than anyone else in the induatry...that is it.
Is that arrogant?
I encourage others to defvelop new and useful info/ideas/concepts/equipment..but urge caution when I see someone who THINKS they are onto something great that I have reaserched previously claiming it works or is safe without having adequately testing it to be reasonably sure it will not cause harm to those that follow the (poorly teted) advice.
I feel those that make such (unteted) claim s do a great disservice to the VO community. Which is mainly why I have lost patience with Forrest. He continually does so.
I am far from threatened by new ideas.
I could stop my public sharing NOW and devote that effort to the profit makeing portion of my business and and make a much better living than I do now. Significantly better with less work I might add.
I could take the percentage of the profit I earmark for and the time I spend trying to obtain funding for Teir I and II testing and raise my income substantially as well.
Why don't I?
Who would do it if I don't?
No govt agency is going to step forward.
No other VO conversion business has experessed any interest in devoting a percentage of time or profit to these.
Is it arrogant to believe if I did not concentrate on the neccesary projects they would languish?
Possibly I just have different goals than most others involved in this "business"
Forrest..what are your main goals?
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 10, 2006 - 5:21pm
#31
You know, you two guys duking it out philosophically is *terrific* for getting the old inventive juices flowing! I just finished coming up with a 2nd flavor of homemade chicken jerky AND a brand new ice cream flavor you won't find anywhere...I may even send it in to Ben and Jerry to see what they can do with it.
After all that, I set out to repair the broken fitting on my heated WVO filter. I'm still looking forward to having Brian's cool system, but I feel better knowing I at least attempted the repair. It may not hold up anyways.
It looks like if you guys keep it up long enough I'll have enough ideas to start producing my own line of food products!
Have you figured out yet who's just stubborn, and who's half crazy?
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
January 10, 2006 - 8:17pm
#32
where are these copyright numbers?
-------------------------
1980 mercedes 300tdt needs an ass lift.
Wgargan at gmail dot com
"we work hard for you so we can plaayyy on the weekendes"
January 10, 2006 - 8:38pm
#33
Quote:
Originally posted by: WestTexan
You're all cheap bastards!
Good luck to anyone of you who try to make a buck on this.
Last month I conducted a survey (only 6 responded) that found that out of all the reasons you grease-you did so-for economic reasons. Not one of you is high minded enough to dumpster dive for fuel for geopolitical issues. You know, WAR.
-------------------------
http://corsicanadailysun.com/cnhi/corsicanadailysun/opinion/local_story_...
marlowswt@hotmail.com
02 Beetle TDI
Commute 600 miles a week
8000+ miles with noooo problem
"Not one of you is high minded enough to dumpster dive for fuel for geopolitical issues. You know, WAR. "
As if....
Doing this to save $ is "high minded" as well. After all what is
money? Money represets the expending of our finite time, energy, and sweat. The more of it we can retain to use as we
see fit, the better...
-------------------------
Except for helping end slavery,fascism,nazism and communism, war has never solved anything.
January 11, 2006 - 11:26pm
#34
Quote:
Originally posted by: nappy nate
forrest,
having read this thread, it looks like dana is asking you to remove them in the e=mail that you posted for all of us to read. How can you claim that he hasn't, it right up their and you posted it.
Theres so many that you can't go to the trouble to remove all five of them , come on man that sounds like a cop out to me.
Yeah right your the only one posting your failured experiments, where do you come up with this stuff and why?
what...?? well i'm asking you to stop posting on these forums because ... i'm asking you to
lol..
January 11, 2006 - 11:28pm
#35
Quote:
Originally posted by: Friar Fewell
Dana,
I guess I wasn't clear enough the first time. Let me try again.
You no more own that glow-plug heater design than you own the air you exhale. If you don't own something, how can somebody else take it away from you?
The free-flow of ideas is what best serves the WVO community, not their restriction. IMO, you are attempting to restrict access to ideas for the sake of your own agenda. If you need money to fund that agenda, please do so the way others are doing it - BY PRODUCING A PRODUCT. That way you won't run the risk of hurting the WVO community by engendering ill will through manipulative bickering to lay exclusive claim to something that belongs in the public domain.
agree 100%
noone is gonna put restrictions on my thinking... there are over 6 billion people in the world, now what is the probobility that we come up same designs of something as simple as glow plug heater??
hm....
January 30, 2006 - 4:11am
#36
January 30, 2006 - 10:50am
#37
.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
January 30, 2006 - 1:42pm
#38
I think I saw childish arguments like this when I was in the 4th grade.
February 10, 2006 - 11:42am
#39
Thread that started it bump :)
February 10, 2006 - 2:22pm
#40
no i think there was 1 post before this that started it. the one i said i would show his e-mails. but then he posted this on another forum..
by the way.... no court papers yet darn it...
-------------------------
Life is like a grease Dumpster, you never know what your going to get.
Web site:E-Mail:MyBlog
February 18, 2006 - 5:32pm
#41
February 18, 2006 - 7:45pm
#42
This battle is old and tired. Put it to bed. Please!
And to the guy that says were cheap bastards for doing this for economic reasons rather than geopolitical or environmental...You are right...That's exactly why I do it. No apologies needed.
February 18, 2006 - 7:39pm
#43
I don't know much about legalitys or law or such things but i have if allways thought that if someone patents something or otherwise owns a idea legally that even if you come up with the same product on your own and it is very similar there is possibility of legal action. Bare in mind like i said i don't know the accual law on this just what i have heard about in court cases. There have been gun smith companys taken to court over the desighn of a firing pin! I mean really how many ways can you even make one of those? I hate to pick sides and i hate to promote for profit buisness in many ways but what dana does and for the prices he asks i think he is in the right on this one if FG's desighn is VERY close to a desighn that DLS has a patent on then the right thing to do would be to just quietly remove the pics from the board. Not being able to verify your sources is also a problem one of them might indeed have bought dana's plans and decided to share the info. After all isn't that why it sometimes takes so long for OEM parts to become available for cars because there is a patent in the way that manufacturers have to wait to expire.
Other then that tho forrest i do appreciate your experiments :) I definantly don't jump right up and try them myself. I wait a bit and see what happens.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
August 9, 2006 - 7:28pm
#44
August 10, 2006 - 5:02am
#45
in this GP-heater issue Dana needs to provide a patent number and a good lawyer. other wise the idea is in "public domain" with each sale of the GP-heater.
Copy write a design will not hold up. (unless you have a lot of money for a Lawyer to keep the case open in discovery for years. but this is a whole different string)
Dana reminds me of Yerdle the turtle King of all the grease he surveys
If Dana is going to cry fowl, he needs a legal leg to stand on. and if he had one he would have used it by now.
or will he just shut up.
he took off the shelf items and built a fuel heater so flipen what. (I'm sure that Idea is not his)
BM, FG, I thank you for taking the time to post your Ideas (even if it is close to Dana's idea) and helping the Greasy community avoid having to deal with people like Dana.
Dana, I would take you more seriously if you did not take the time to potty mouth other systems.
good luck to you, I'm sure that I will at some point be (Riping off your "Ideas") you act like you are the inventor of the diesel engine and VO fuel.
-------------------------
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82 240d (GC kit)
80 300TD (GC kit)
84 300D one tank for the summer (then GC kit)
85 300D (GC Kit)
82 300TD one tank for the sum (Then Hom
July 13, 2007 - 9:58am
#46
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Forest I say we just sit back and watch him fail, All we have to do is warn newbies. and as for you coping his ideas, I wouldn't think so, but then again I am not willing to pay money for designs on something I can make myself.
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10% Logic + 20% Presperation + 10% computer knowlege + 70% Mechanical Skill == 110% of making everything I own run on veggie. Burn the Veggie!