My bus :(

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Rif
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So I blew the IP and drove it around to see if injector cleaner would help, not knowing the IP was blown. To make a long story short I was just told I had no compression in a cylinder. He doesn't know if it a valve or a piston yet, he is going to tell me if he can pull the head with out pulling the engine. This may be the end for my bus, and I blame it on bio-d and myself for not heeding the warnings of those in the know. Sadly,

rif

Chase's picture
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Are the other pistons/compression ok?

Also, I thought if an IP goes, engine don't run at all?

If so, hopefully its just a ring for that one, though since he'll pull the head anyway, might as well check/replace the other rings too.

Since it was such a small amount of driving, hopefully no cylinder wall damage or anything like that. So fixing, new IP, then back on your way shouldn't be too bad.

Why do you think biodiesel cause this? IPs, especially old ones, go all the time.

-------------------------
2005 VW Golf PD-TDI

dcwier1's picture
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Joined: 09/15/2005

Sorry to hear that. When my IP went in my 300tdt wagon it went out slowly . But it is a mechanical pump. How did the bio-d cause this since bio is closer to viscosity of reg. diesel fuel then is plain wvo ? How were you still able to run the bus if the IP went out ?

Rif
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Well, all good questions. I was told the ip was not pumping but still passing the fuel through. It was still cold out when I was using the bio-d, and never had any indication that the IP was failing. Yes, compression is fine in the other cylinders as far as I know.

rif

Pir8Darryl's picture
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Joined: 11/26/2006

What engine? What year? Where are you located?

Maybe some of us have a few spare parts we could donate to get you back on the road.

Phil's picture
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Joined: 05/28/2004

How about a second opinion? Are you sure your mechanic is honest and competant? It doesn't all sound quite right.

Could it be the lift pump failed, not the IP? And how would that damage the piston or valve?

Rif
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It is a 6.2 liter 1993 Chevy G30. The problem around here are the limited diesel mechanics. this guy is already 3 towns over, and a second opinion would most likely mean the cost and time of another tow even further out in the sticks. This guy did come recommended and seems to do much diesel work. I am guessing that the cylinder that went was already going and the IP failure time was just ordained from above...
I am really upset about this, I have put so much time and effort into this vehicle, and am willing to put more, just not that much more $$$.

rif :(

Rif
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He is taking the head out now to see if it is a valve or piston. If it is a valve issue I think I can get away with a fix, if it is piston I am screwed 'cause I cannot afford a new (rebuilt) engine. If that, the worst case scenario plays out, what do yall recommend I do to reduce my losses. If the piston is bad I'll still owe the guy for $2100 for a new IP, starter, flywheel and taking of the head. I do not have that kinda money!!! I will definitely pull my kit, but I can't imagine taking such a loss. G-d help.

rif

dcwier1's picture
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You could part it out if you have to .

Rif
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How would one go about parting it out? Would you just advertise parts available come and take them out if you can?

rif

Rif
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It looks like the bus may make it after all. Apparently there are rocker type things made out of nylon that hold and move the valves. One was broken and that cylinder was ceased. There are 8 in each valve case, so I am having them all replaced. I think that might be it. So I am now looking at: New starter, new fly wheel, new IP and 16 new valve rockerounds. I think it will end up costing me around $2100. How does that sound?

Rif

Rif
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the nylon piece that failed was a rocker arm keeper. I just did some delving on diesel place.

rif

Donniej's picture
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Why do you need a flywheel? There just a big chunk of metal and don't really wear out...

An IP should cost you ~$500 and maybe that much to install it (pretty easy job). Wheres' the rest of the cost?

-------------------------
1985 300D; W/Greasecar Kit.
1993 Chevy 3500; My own Conversion.

Chase's picture
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Can't comment on cost as I have no basis to work from.

But $2100 to then be able to continue on WVO, with $4.30 diesel? Sounds like a sound investment to me.

-------------------------
2005 VW Golf PD-TDI

Rif
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I had a history of blowing starters, my fault, using starter fluid when I first got the bus when the glow plugs and relay were no good, then when I first installed the kit, so in blowing three starters I also screwed up the flywheel. After he replaced the IP the start blew, and when he went to replace it he saw the fly wheel was toast. So the IP was around $400, the start was a couple hundred, not sure how much the fly wheel was, and the labor of all that and going under the valve covers to replace the rocker arm keepers...

rif

Phil's picture
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I think I'm getting more supicious - all these things going at once? How does starting fluid damage the starter? And how muc hdriving can you do on a blown IP?

peaber's picture
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Hey Rif,

Just a side note to maybe save you huge money in the future.

With so many starter changes I wonder if the suport bracket is still there. The bracket is on the rear of the starter (towards front of vehicle). R&R of the bracket is difficult because of accessability, thus many leave it off.

Huge mistake!!

Without this bracket the starter is held by the two main bolts and the starter rocks back and forth with each start. After a while the bolt/s break and you have to remove the broken part from the block. THIS IS IF YOUR LUCKY

If your not so lucky the bolts don't break, but a peice of your block snaps off.....then you have real problems.

Link

Someone before me left mine detached but I was lucky and only had to get the broken bolt out.

-------------------------
1994 Chev Suburban 6.5 diesel. Purchased with 162,000 miles. Installed GreaseCar kit. Now has 208,000 miles. Relocated PMD to air filter box.

Rif
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Joined: 09/26/2006

I will be sure to ask about the support bracket.

Thanks all

rif

dcwier1's picture
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Quote:
Originally posted by: Rif
How would one go about parting it out? Would you just advertise parts available come and take them out if you can?

rif
You could do it a few different ways . The easiest but less profitable would be to List is as a parts vehicle sell the whole thing at once or come by and disasemble the part they need and charge what ever you thing is good, base it on used part price found used parts wharehouses minus their sweat . Or if good with tools take it apart and ship it bit by bit.

Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Fluid doesn't fry a starter, but continually trying to start it without letting it cool down will.

I'd check the value of the parts before I went down this "part-out" road. Buses are required to be taken off the road after a certain number of miles -- making me thing that there are alot of used parts available already?

Good luck, man.

Rif
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Ok, so here is the update. The bus lives. The start went because it was not installed correctly. The IP just had its time. The rocker arm keeper was most likely broken by me reving the engine after thinking it could just be some clogged thing so I put some injector cleaner in and pushed it to hard. So I am having all the rocker arm keepers replaced. Looks like it is going to cost me around 2k for all the work.

rif

Chase's picture
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Might as well go for an engine bay steam clean and detail while you're at it. ;)

Glad to hear its alive. So you still going to drive to Greasestock?

-------------------------
2005 VW Golf PD-TDI

Rif
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Chase,

I saw your youtube movie, pretty cool. Yea Greasestock is a go.

Rif

Anonymous
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$2k seems like a lot of money for that work. Seems to me you need to start looking into being your own mechanic! If you can build a filtering rig, you can replace an IP and a starter.

Rif
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Thanks for the vote of confidence.

rif

JBG
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Between the two of us Rif, we could probably figure it out. At least I could assist in the lifting :0

Glad to hear you're still up for Greasestock. Jen and I are both still interested in going with you and the kids. Will the bus make it there and back on just one full 40 gallon tank???

JBG

-------------------------
Photobucket

Rif
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Totally.

rif

Rif
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So now it still may be a :( situation. He's got the bus idling and he is saying there is still a slight skip. So after 2k he is telling me the motor is just tired. I am kinda tired too. Now what....?

rif

Rif
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i am on an emotional roller coaster. The mechanic took it for a drive and said it is clearing up, he said there was raw fuel in the exhaust due to the previously malfunctioning valve.

rif

Donniej's picture
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Most of that $2K is the flywheel install. You have to pull the trans to get it out.

It all sounds legit though. If you burned up that many starters, I'm not surprised you chewed up the ring gear...

-------------------------
1985 300D; W/Greasecar Kit.
1993 Chevy 3500; My own Conversion.

Phil's picture
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You really need a new mechanic. Bring it to Greasestock and let Wally look at it.

TDIguy's picture
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Is that flywheel in the same place like on my car? the only place i know of a flywheel is in the transmission area and the tranny butts right up to that and the clutch how is the mechanic able to look at that without pulling the engine or the tranny out of the car? How is starting a car with starting fluid going to burn out something like the flywheel? Maybe it is just old age.

After spending 2k on the car and not getting satisfactory results i would try to find a diesel mechanic that is recomended also and get a second opinion. I would also suggest pickup up a repair manuael and investing in some tools to do more work on it yourself. If i can work on my jetta you can work on your bus.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html

Rif
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TDI,

I will heed your advice as it is good. He did drop the tranny to change the fly wheel. This is my fourth starter. It turns out the last two blew because they were installed improperly with the shims recommended by Chevy so that screwed up the flywheel. It is really hard to work on the bus though without a lift due to the placement of the engine, but investing in some tools is a good idea, and TDI you can start the Rif tool fundraising drive ;) !

rif

Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Rif, who put in the first 3 starters? They should be covering the cost of the 4th (and reimbursing you for at least 2 others)... oh, a flywhell swap should also be gratis. After all that, I'd still demand an apology.

Rif
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The likely hood of getting anything out of the guys who originally did the starter twice is very very unlikely, they are kinda crass...

Chase's picture
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You should definitely go after them for it. Write them a letter, send it FedEx or some other signed/trackable method. Give them 10 business days to send you a check.

When they ignore it, just file a small claims case in Northampton. Its very easy to do, and good for anything less than $2500 I believe.

I'm not a litigious person, but for a mech to do it wrong several times in a row, charging you every time, is utterly unconscionable and should not be tolerated.

-------------------------
2005 VW Golf PD-TDI

Rif
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Chase, I'll consider that. Thanks for the idea. I gotta round up the paper work.

Rif

Rif
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Once again sounding not good. The mechanic said it was still smoking a ton this morning and that one of the piston rings is probably letting fuel through. It's not looking good my friends :(

rif

Phil's picture
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It is really time for a new mechanic. This guy is either clueless and taking random shots at a cure, or playing you for all he can get.

Rif
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Phil,

So 2k into it and no fix. How would you suggest I go about presenting my case to him to try not to pay 2k!? I mean when I first took it in he said it was symptomatic of a bad IP in the process of trouble shooting that ie starting the engine the starter broke I had enough confidence in his opinion that it didn't look like anything to series to let him go ahead, that just snow balled. Now with the advent of a bad piston (ring) I got nothin but 2k worth of bills. Do I say hey what can you do for me here, your can't, in good conscience take 2k from me and give me a doomed vehicle?

rif

peaber's picture
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Tell him his diagnosis was wrong and see if he'll fix the problem under these conditions. You'll buy the parts, he provides the labor. It's only fair. This way you arn't getting anything free and he has to work extra for his wrong diagnosis.

I mean, come on, a compression test should have told him there was a ring problem as long as was the piston not involved with your rocker/valve problem.

Even so, couldn't he have checked the compression before reassembling the entire motor.

-------------------------
1994 Chev Suburban 6.5 diesel. Purchased with 162,000 miles. Installed GreaseCar kit. Now has 208,000 miles. Relocated PMD to air filter box.

Rif
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Well, he never really had the engine a part just the valve covers off. But to fix the problem he said a rebuild would be called for, and I can't go there.

Rif

Ben
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Rif....I hate to say it but this guy sounds like he's just throwing parts at it until it's fixed, at your expense.
How he is coming up with a worn ring is beyond me. If he did a compression test and found a dead cylinder while all the others were fine, that would point to a stuck valve or a blown headgasket at that cylinder. This he would have seen when he removed the head.
A bad injector [stuck open] would cause a miss and excess smoke.
If the new ip was not timed with a meter that could also cause excess smoke--too far advanced.
Alot of these "mechanics" time a diesel by ear because they don't have a meter or a pulse adapter.
Cracking open the connection at the injectors one at a time will isolate the bad cylinder [if there is one] and then that injector can be tested or replaced if needed. Most injection shops test injectors for free.
What color is the smoke ? Black smoke under hard acceleration is normal. Is it burning oil ? Bad rings will burn oil !
Don't know if this helps or not because it's after the fact.

Ben

Ben
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Rif I just re-read one of your posts and this guy is full of sh**.
If the ip is not pumping then there will not be sufficient pressure to open the injectors and the engine would not run.
The ip increases the pressure from the lift pump to 1400-2100 psi.

Ben

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You are in a tough spot, no doubt. Have you already paid him the $2,000?

If he is just lost and hoping the problem will go away, you can probably get him to take a fraction of that if you take the bus somewhere else. Tell him you found an expert on these motors and want to try him - your mechanic will probably be happy to see it leave.

If he is a thief and just trying to take all he can, you may have to threaten him with complaints or small claims court. Especially if he already has your money.

I guess either way, you ought to make him awarethat you think this is not going well and see where it goes.

Remember he may not think this is so exteme. When dealers regularly charge $700 for a brake job, $1,000 for a 60,000 mile maintenance or a new computer, some folks willingly pay these fees.

Rif
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Thanks guys. I haven't paid him yet. The guy seems nice enough, I will try very hard to pay as little as possible, but I won't be a jerk and hopefully he won't be either...

rif

Phil's picture
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Good attitude. Good luck.

Rif
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So the good news is the bus is running smoothly again, the not such good news is it cost me 3k!

Rif

Chase's picture
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690 gallons of diesel at today's prices.

So maybe 710 gallons of WVO burned will pay that back. D2 goes up in price, it'll happen even faster.

-------------------------
2005 VW Golf PD-TDI

Rif
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That makes me feel a little better. Thanks. See ya at Greasestock.

Rif

Rif
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Update: Items replaced: injecters, IP, lift pump, timing chain, starter and flywheel. That is around $4k!!!
The bus still smokes and burps at start up and seems to clear up when it gets going. I'm not at all happy with that though since it was a total non-smoker before this, and after 4K! So tonight on my way home from Home Depot I was doing around 70 mph on grease and I look in my left mirror and see sparks flying out my exhaust! I pulled over and purged and switched to diesel and it stopped sparking, then I started driving again on grease and it was fine.... What do you make o' that?

rif