I do not believe that G-d put himself into his "son" and them allowed himself to be killed for the sake of eternal forgiveness for believers. I believe that every person is responsible for their own actions and must act accordingly or face the music. However I appreciate the fact that you took the time to post something on the topic of the spiritual. Happy holidays.

Rif

werd

I think the story is wonderful. Who cares if it originally came from a 'chain email'. I don't.

I think that the objections are predictable. I find them funny actually.

Racy pics are OK.....

Dropping 'F' bombs is FINE......

Let somebody mention God..... and all HELL breaks loose.

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Ed
2004 Jetta TDI on BioDiesel
(soon)6HP Listeroid gen set
"Talk is cheap because supply
usually exceeds demand."

Too many people offended, not enough just annoyed.

Why say "BOO-HOO" when "BOO" will do.

If you look closley at the message no one is saying your bad, or attacking you. Why the surly response.

Merry Christmas adaminnj, and may God find his way to your heart.

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We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "Smart"?

double post

Now why can't I get a $10 deal like that? :)

DC --

Ya forgot that included in the auction was an 83 mecedes benz with a GC kit installed and only 145 k orig miles..

GOD BLESS YOU AND THE VEGGY PEEPS !!

BB

Kee Pawn Gree Zin

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G R 8 to C PEEPs aren't afraid 2 go against the grain- think 4 themselves & not just do as the masses!http://www.metroups.com/article
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/24/earlyshow/contributors/melinda...

Am I the first one to point out the obvious? The title of the thread CLEARLY stated that it was off topic. If you don't want to read off topic posts, simply don't look! Problem solved! :)

PS: I personally have no problem with posts like this, or any off topic posts.

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Marshall from NC
1993 Mercedes 300D

If your refering to me, I'm not flaming anybody. In fact I 'm not even warmed up. Sorry if you took it that way.

You believe in gravitational pull, great. Who created that pull or gravity for that matter?

Any of the theories of creation could be right. But God is behind all of them.

Of course, this is my opinion, and as you can see from this thread, all are entitled.

marshall2u: Great point

Merry Christmas

-------------------------
We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "Smart"?

Ok so if gravity is one of god's creations why did he waste it on the moon? So we can fly up there and bounce around and play like fools and perhaps break some records with the longest gold drive using the crappiest club? You overcomplicate it gravity is the attraction a small mass has to a large mass. This is one area the term blind faith is definantly appropriate.

-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html

You answered your lastest question with a previous statement. How can gravity be wasted on the moon to keep it in place to.." thakfully seems to also act as a shield for us with how often it has been hit by metiors and such."

Knowledge is good, but you can't claim to know more than the teacher.

-------------------------
We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "Smart"?

adaminnj wrote:

"I would rather see OT post the N-word than this type of tripe because at least you know where OT stands.
this is markkiting for jesus, and passed off as a touching storie."

I'm glad to see you're finally being honest about why you commented on this post. :)

-------------------------------------------------------

TDIGuy,
I would like to challenge what you said about the bible being far diffent now from what it was in the past. I believe that historically, that is entirely false. Even the earliest manuscripts of the bible are over 99% identical to current texts. Before the days of the printing press, the scribes went to great lengths to keep the copied texts identical. Not only were the copies proof read for errors, but the number of characters were counted, the lines actually measured, etc. all to ensure that the copies were completely identical. Any page that did not meet all criteria were destroyed and started over. Please provide some tangible proof to support your claim if you think it is actually true. I think you will have a very difficult time finding support for it. Take some time to examine the criteria that you are using to critique the bible, then apply the same criteria to every single other historical text you can think of... you will see that the bible comes out miles ahead of any other text... that is historical fact. Today the bible has more complete texts and fragments, is closer to the original, and its earliest fragments are dated closer to the actual events, more than any other historical document in existence today. That's not me just spouting off nonsense either; this can be easily found in any publication on the topic (excluding web sites where people are just blurting out their opinions). The only reason I'm spending so much time addressing this issue is because it's some of the worst-but-popular pieces of anti-Christian dogma today.

As far as the creation of the universe goes, belief in a strictly materialistic origin is more supernatural than you think. Think about this... What must have happened for the universe to come about by "natural" forces??? It must have come about by following natural law, correct? (otherwise it would, by definition, be "supernatural") Every scientist knows that in order for the universe to come about by today's known natural laws (e.g. the law of entropy), there must have been violations of the laws. The law of entropy is a good example. The universe expands because of entropy. After the "big bang," the universe spread apart very rapidly. Yet we see all around us that instead of spreading apart, the energy condensed into stars and planets. So does energy spread apart or does it condense??? I know this may be overly complicated (or overly simplified, depending on what you already know) but it's a good example of the fact that many people today are using quite a bit of semantics in order to make it appear as though the origins of the universe, earth etc., is well understood, when in fact, it's no more understood now than it was 2000 years ago before natural law was understood.

I think I've gone on long enough but I am curious to hear your response. Let me know what you think...

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"If my mental process are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true...and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." J. B. S. Haldane
------------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
You have been very thoroughly brainwashed. Accurate by who's account? the popes of course. Here is a trick. Tell someone a story have them tell it to someone then someone else tells it ans so fourth Thats the bible. How can you possibally think a book originally written in parables can even be writen in absolues and be anywhere near accurate? How do you explain the many books that were intentionally left out of the bible.

-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html

As I said before, you should really spend some time writing down some criteria for how to discern authentic historical text, then hold every other historical document to that same criteria. First, it will give you some kind of quatifiable "reason" for why or why not you choose to believe the bible has been corrupted over time. And second, you will have a tangible reference point for which to critique all other historical texts. If you do this, I guarantee that you will find that other texts, which you probably do not discount in the same way you do the bible, do not meet your criteria. Please look for some tangible, factual evidence for your position. I don't think it's as overwhelming as you believe it to be.

Here's a trick for you: write something down, then have somebody else write it down, and have them tell somebody else to write it down, and so on... then after a given amount of time, compare the most recent document with the original document. If they are the same then you can trust that they have been transcribed properly. It's pretty simple. Again, I challenge you to find two credible biblical documents that are significantly different.

Here's another trick: the above trick is performed over and over again for one thousand years. At the end of one thousand years, 99% of the records are identical and 1% of them are different from the others. Which ones are more accurate? Most people would say the ones that are 99% similar. That's how I explain the ones that are left out. And yes, it is that obvious if you look at real facts and not off-the-cuff outbursts from non-believers. Really, if you don't believe me then take some time to look into it further.

I'll bet you a six pack of your choice (vs. a six pack of my choice, of course) that my account is closer to fact than yours. :)

And please don't think I'm being arrogant or pretentious here; I just want to get at the real, factual information. I'm not out to "win" and I don't think I'm getting brownie-points with Jesus if I convince you... I just want to make sure the real information is being presented...

As far as a book being written in parables, the bible is not as much parable as it is often made out to be. They are in there for certain but it is by no means the majority. Most of it is just a description of historical events. Yes, the authors happen to believe that those events were influenced by a supernatural power (God) but that does not change the fact that those events actually happend. Secondly, most of the parables are not difficult to understand. They were told because their meaning would be obvious to their audience. Take the popular "good samaritan" parable. One could not possibly deny that this is meant to convey the idea of helping those we do not know (or something very similar). The story was told as an answer to the question "who is my neighbor?" Can you imagine what people would do if the response was an absolute? We would turn to semantics and rhetoric to explain away why that particular definition does not fit our situation, and we would sit on our asses anytime we encountered some one in need of our help. To most people, the answer is obvious, our neighbor is anyone we encounter in need of help. Most parables that I know of are the same; they are actually quite simple stories in

I wish i could remember the exact show but i have watched a great deal of history. I believe if you were to hold those standards the other texts would come out on top. One example i can think of is judiasim because it is still written only in latin any time something is translated it is subject to enterpertation and that can lead to someone's opinion rather then fact. You might think the bible is 99% accurate to its original book but other then insisting on that point are the original texts still around? I could swear i remember a historic fire wiping out those records in vienna and how much of a tragic loss it was or perhaps convenent. I have a hard time remembering specifics but i am also no religion expert i just question when religious groups study themself and say they are accurate. I guarentee if i wanted to see if my house was up to code and i was the inspector that my house would be up to code.
And yes the devistateing events ALL of them have been proven to happen AND all of them have been proven to be subject to enterpertation of if they were gods work (if you are a believer) Or if they were natural disasters litterally all of them could be explained as natural disasters even the killing of all the first born (thank you history channel) simply because of where the first born back in those time slept it could have been a large cloud of gas (co2 i think they said) that was heavier then air comeing out of the sea being released by a earthquake. I find it very convenent that all of the provable events that god created can also be easily explained by science. I also love that now days we have "faith" healers. Y

-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html

I am very pleased to be a part of this intelligent, thoughtful, diverse group of thinkers. Where else can you find such a lively debate on matters of the head and heart to such an extent as you find right here. Well done.

Just imagine, If Dub and his yes men had a debate such as this prior to the Iraqi F%$#-up then their would be 3K fewer dead Americans, 60K fewer dead Iraqis, one trillion more dollars for education and health care and 130K more U.S. servicemen at home with their families for Christmas.

Oh yea? screw you too.

HDT-Formally "West Texan"

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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone. - Me

Those that say that man invented the notion of God out of his insecurity, and need to explain the unexplained, forget the flip side.....

Even if God DOES exist, man in his arrogance would invent atheism.

Your own existence is just as unlikely.

Merry CHRISTmas.

-------------------------
Ed
2004 Jetta TDI on BioDiesel
(soon)6HP Listeroid gen set
"Talk is cheap because supply
usually exceeds demand."

Quote:
Originally posted by: TDIguy
The only reason god can explain everything is because whenyou say god did it you dont need proof. Thats also why i refer to it as blind faith. Its very easy to simply say god has done it all. Now prove it. You can not you cant hope to prove it. Prove god accually caused those events in the bible. You can't because science has explained it all of them! I just ask you to open your eyes and realize that the lord is not allways the answere. When people are sucsesfull and they have faith and they work hard they say it is all because of there faith. How do you figure that? If i work hard all my life and end up sucsessfull personally that is my own doing. If things go wrong and i end up on the corner is that also god's will to have someone that worked hard and dedicated themself to gods work that they be rewarded by being homeless? Go ahaid try proving god is real. You can not because religion is based 100% on blind faith. The more i talk about this the less spiritual i am. My father was the best person i have ever come to know but yet he died a slow agonizing death to cancer. He was also a very religious man and went to church very faithfully and used to prey at home when he had a few moments of free time. Your answere there is that it was simply his time. If that was so why not a nice painless death?

-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html

TDIguy,
first of all, thanks for sharing such a personal matter about your father. I won't pretend to understand what it's like seeing some one as close as your father go through cancer, though I have had several people close to me go through it (grandmother, sister-in-law, and close friend). You are not alone in your experience or in how it influences your spiritual beliefs.

In general, what you have presented here is one of the longest running, personal problems that people have with the idea of a good god... that is, how can a good god let bad things happen. It's been debated for millenia in philosophical circles and is called "the problem of evil."

If you are truly interested in an in depth look at this issue, I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' book, "The Problem of Pain." I'll try to capture a good summary here as brief as I can, but keep in mind that I cannot do it justice in this space. I highly encourage anyone that has this same issue with god to read this book (but be ready for some dense reading). I often found that I had to read the same page several times before I understood what he was trying to say so don't be discouraged if you decide to read it.

Basically, the problem of evil is not as big as a problem when you factor in free will. Imagine if we were all pre-programmed to "love God" and yet some how had the same intellect and will power that we have now (bear with me, I realize it's a contradiction). One would have to wonder if each individual REALLY chose to follow God, or if we just did it because we were made to do so. We would never know what our own true motives were because there would be no way to find out. However, with free will, we genuinely have the option whether or not to follow God. Unfortunately, we don't always choose to follow God. This necessarily means that bad things are possible in the world because there might be people who choose to make bad choices, and then there will be the consequences of those choices, which can also be bad (and often are). The ONLY possible way to allow for us to have free will is also to allow for the possibility of bad things in this world. You cannot have one without the other.

So the first point is this: if humans are to have free will, then there NECESSARILY must be a possibility for bad choices to be made, and those bad choices might result in bad consequences, which could cause more bad choices, and so on...

After hearing that, m

adaminnj,

Just to set the record straight. KD is the one offering to
wager the six pack(I don't drink alcohol either, but I'm sure coke would be fine too).

It appears s/he has been drinking from that "fountain" I have been looking for. I'm impressed by his/her grasp of this subject and apparent research ability. From profile I see "chemist".

It is certainly your right to practice whatever religion you so choose, that is one thing that makes this country great.

I don't think repentance makes you a non-sinner. We all are sinners, but it is great to be able to wipe the slate clean.

Are you saying with Buddism you are always held accountable for the past, or am I misinterpreting something? If that's what you're saying that would be tough. I think most of us did some things when we were young that we are not too proud of.

I am not familiar with the torah and I don't think dictator=God

-------------------------
We have enough youth. How about a fountain of "Smart"?