Oil Temperature at injection pump
January 27, 2012 - 6:01pm
How important is it to get the oil to 180 degrees during the time that I run on grease?
My grease set-up usally gets to about 160 or 165 during the winter and I want to be sure I'm getting
the most combustion possible
February 4, 2012 - 12:17am
#2
Thanks ,
Iunderstand that heat is very importantMy truck a 2001 Dodge 3500 24 vale runs at 190 degrees. I have a greasecar kit installed which has a 16 plate heat exchanger. with the daytime temperature outside around 60 degrees no problem but in the low 40s and below it won't reach 180. I guess i need to insulate the FPHE or I need one with more plates .What are your thoughts
February 4, 2012 - 7:57am
#3
160 or 165 is probably fine. Where are you measuring the temp?
February 4, 2012 - 1:24pm
#4
How important is it to get the oil to 180 degrees during the time that I run on grease?
Oil temp is not important. Coolant temp is more important, especially for Cummins engine.
There was discussion about this issue before.
I am running a 05 Cummins (RAM) 2500 GC kit. The switchover coolant temp is set at 150F, the default setting of the co-pilot.
Right now in winter, around 30-40F in the morning, once switched over the oil temp start at around 70F.
about 160 or 165 during the winter is normal. The oil temp will hardly get up to 190F.
Cummins takes more than half hour drive to warm up to operating temp 190F even with winterfront installed.
Power Stroke will warm up much faster.
February 6, 2012 - 12:09pm
#5
Indirect injection engines are more tolerant of cooler VO than Direct Injection engines.
Older Mercedes seem to be able to operate tolerably well on VO with a temp (prior to inejction) of 150F though overall useful engine life is extended by hotter (pre-injection) temps.
DI engines experience longer engine life (as a rule) when pre injection temps are above 200F and DI engines with piston diameters smaller than those of a Cummins 5.7 appear to operate best on (pre-injection) VO temps of 230F or higher.
As a rule of thumb the VO exiting a FPHE is about 10-20 degrees cooler than the coolant temp registering on your dash engine gauges.
Keeping VO temps adequately high is more of a challenge in cold climates than warm ones. If your dash coolant temp is fl;uctuating your VO temp is as well. There are simple steps to fix that in most cases.
If you provide more information on your vehicle I might be able toprovide more helpful and specific information. But you may need to contact me directly as I don't check this forum often.
February 6, 2012 - 12:35pm
#6
or you can call greasecar and ask them what they think. you dont need to talk to anyone else
February 7, 2012 - 11:51pm
#7
Brian Miller
As many different posts and informational experiments as I've read and looked at pics of your greasing,I am surprised at your comment . I have found good help at greasecar, but I have also learned many things from others.
However, Rick and Justin are welcome to advise me on this post. I have had different conversations with them both in the past. I wanted to get to some of the owners and greasers that run the same or similar truck as mine.
I would have thought some one such as yourself could or would direct me to a forum or posting that thoroughly coverd the inportance of oil temps at the injection pump. And still will apppreciate if you choose to do so.
My truck is a dodge 2001 3500 24 valve with the VP 44 injection pump. I have the switchover temp sensor for grease on the return from the tank and set at 170 degrees engine coolant temp.
the oil temp guage sensor is about 12 inches before the injection pump
Btw my truck will warm up to switch over between 6-7 miles at 30 degree weather
Keep room for us that are new at this.Thanks
February 8, 2012 - 6:02am
#8
I think maybe Brian was just trying to keep you from contacting Danalinscott, who probably just wants to sell you something but can't do it on the forum.
I have a similar truck to yours ('99 24 valve). I don't think I ever see oil temps above 170 in the winter, often more like 150 or so. It runs fine, and has for 30,000 miles.
February 8, 2012 - 9:10am
#9
It runs fine, and has for 30,000 miles.
Phil
How long has this truck of yours been running on grease? months years Please.
Also do you use any additives in your oil regularly or once in a while to help keep the system and injectors clean?
Are any of the others using an additive or process for keeping the system clean?
February 8, 2012 - 12:16pm
#10
I thought I would check back and see if you were still looking for information.
Are you aware of the problems associated with the VP 44 injection pumps?
There was quite a bit of discussion and research done on this several years ago, most of which is archived on the Frybrid forum. Google "vp44 injection pump problems frybrid" and you should find 90% of it. Chris Goodwin did a very good job of gathering together information on these problems once he was made aware of the the danger of using standard (for then) VO converison technology on engines with the vp44 injection pump.
Since these pumps are VERY expensive to replace I suggest that you make certain that your current conversion configuration is designed to avoid them before considering any modifications that might raise VO temp higher than it currently is.
For optimum engine life I think you will want to raise pre-injection VO temps to at least 220F but since the cost of replacing your trucks IP is so high it is probably not an economically desirable choice unless you can do so without creating a higher probability that your IP will fail prematurely. After all even doubling the useful life of your engine won't save any money if you have to replace your IP every 80,000 miles.
It is not all that difficult or expensive to modify most conversions to reach pre-injection target temps of 220F+ but engines using the vp44 injection pump are a special case and require greater understanding of the potential problems than most others.
If you check out the information on vp44 injection pump problems thoroughly and still want more help just ask. I am happy to help as much as my schedule allows.
Re: Selling components
I am happy to discuss this subject in a separate discussion. If past experience in any indicator doing so in this (unrelated) discussion will cause it to degrade to the point of non-usefulness (to anyone). If anyone wishes to discuss THAT please start a separate discussion with that topic ...send me an email with the link to it.. and I will participate as my schedule allows. Please respect the original poster enough to allow this discussion to not be de-railed.
February 8, 2012 - 6:00pm
#11
This is my understanding of the greasecar system. I could be wrong! Justin please feel free to comment if I am wrong.
GC uses coolant to heat oil (HIH). So if there is coolant temp there will be oil temp even though it is lower than coolant temp.
GC developed their co-pilot to control their kits. I would like to mention 4 of the values you can set on the co-polit.
{Engine Temp Low: In auto mode, the controller will Flush and switch to Diesel Safe if the engine temp falls below this value. The factory setting is 100F.
Engine Temp High: In auto mode, the system will switch to VO if the engine temp rises above this value. The factory setting is 150F.
It should be noted that value slightly below the engine normal operating temp should be selected for best results.
Fuel Temp High and Low: The current package does not utilize these values.}
The info inside the { } are adapted directly from my installation manual.
GC recommemded to install the coolant temp sensor on the heated VO straight fitting so it's monitoring the hot coolant temp from the engine to the VO filter heat exchanger and this is a direct reflection of the engine temp. GC uses the engine temp to control the switchover point. The VO temp sensor is used only to display the VO temp on the controller.
The fuel temp high and low settings are not used now, may be use them in the future.
So , for a GC system, as far as coolant temp reaches 150F it's safe to switchover to VO. But it did mention that you should select a higher value for best result.
When running on VO, somehow if coolant temp drops to below 100F it's unsafe and it will flush and switch back to diesel. So it,s still safe when the coolant is above 100F.
VO temp is not a factor of concern as far as the VO lift pump can deliver the VO to the IP.
Have been running my truck for a year, 17000 miles on grease. I did add some additives in the diesel tank and VO tank just for a little peace of mind and cross my fingers.
JUST MY OWN OPINION!!!
February 8, 2012 - 6:19pm
#12
oilguy, sorry nothing was ment towards you. and thanks Phil.
February 8, 2012 - 6:22pm
#13
but also what i ment was if you bought and own a chevy then why would you take it to ford to get worked on. so if you beleve in enought to buy a greasecar kit then i would call them and go with what ever they say has worked for them for the last 13 years.when my ford has to go to the shop i dont call or take it to dodge. so if you have a greasecar kit DON'T take it to DANAs
February 8, 2012 - 8:22pm
#14
I am well aware of the VP44 issues and have read, understand, and decided to take the risk. There is another greaser that does not have a greasecar kit in a truck like mine and has had great success on grease. GreaseCar is a dependable source for their products. but there are different views to the the fine points of running grease.
That said, I am wanting my truck to last as long as possible on grease!
I converted my truck at 217K and it now has 239.5K This is my first winter. As Phil said the truck at 150 dergrees may be a little low for the changeover to grease even though that is the factory set-upon the controller from greasecar. So thats why I followed my friend's recommendation to have the switchover at 170 degrees coolant temp and again that is on the return line from the tank.
Now is there a place to see recommendations about the insulation of the FPHE or would going to one with more than 16 plates going to make a difference as the grease flows toward the IP?
Does some one know?
February 8, 2012 - 8:51pm
#15
About 4 years on my truck. No grease related problems whatsoever. And I use no additives.
There is at least one guy on the Frybrid forum who put a couple hundred thousand on his 24 valve. His IP did eventually fail, but it had maybe 350K or more on it, so it's hard to blame it on the grease.
I really think 150 degrees is fine on this vehicle. You probably could add a few degrees by insulating the lines, filter and FPHE. I used foam pipe insulation, and and old beer cooler around the filter. You might also install a higher temp thermostat.
February 9, 2012 - 10:51am
#16
haven't been on here in a while my surcumstances have changed don't have the heated garage to cure up my oil. But one thing I notice the on going saga of Miller VS. Linscott is continuing and that in a way is comforting . LOL Brian has he had papers served on you yet ? or is he still gathering info ?
February 10, 2012 - 3:51pm
#17
As long as you know the risks and have read the info regarding how to mitigate those risks I am happy to proceed.
What I post on this forum is not to be construed as denigrating GCs kit, knowledge, or conversion skills. To be honest I don't know what is included in their current kit for this engine. So if some or all of the components I reccomend are already part of your conversion just ignore that info and if a component I suggest is not currently part of your conversion ask for more info.
I think it was a wise move to increase your switchover temp to 170F. The majority of the info publicly available indicates that maximum engine longevity on VO fuel is acheived when VO or VO blends are not used in engine running at temps under full operating temp. During cold weather the use of a winter front can not only help with faster engine warm up but more stable engine coolant temps as well.
A 15 or 16 plate FPHE should be sufficient for your engine size. The simplest way to insulate it is to wrap several layers of mylarized bubble insulation areound it and cover with a few layers of duct tape. It is nearly as simple to make a tight fitting box of 2" blue construction foam board insulation to nestle your FPHE in.
If you don't have a fuel pressure dash gauge to monitor the pressure provided by the fuel pump I suggest adding one.
I concur that adding insulation to the VO filter and post heating fuel lines is a wise move.
If there is a VO fuel return line to the VO tank re-configuring it to a limited loop might be beneficial in cold ambient temps.
If any of the diesel/vo blend created during the "purge" period is sent to the diesel fuel tank I would reccomend modifying your configuration to send it to the VO tank.
I would also make certain that the purge period is lengthy enough to be absolutely certain that there NO VO is present in the fuel which remains in the high pressure section of the fuel system after the engien is shut down.
If you want to raise pre-injection fuel temps higher than they currently are look into high capacity injection line heaters. These have the capability of raising VO fuel temps to over 220F. Generally speaking the pre-injection temps of VO in engines with uninsulated injection lines is 20-30 degrees cooler than it was when it exited the IP. VO that is 220F combusts signficantly better diesel fuel than VO that is 140F.
Even just adding insulation to the injector lines can add as much as 10 degrees to the pre-injection fuel temp.
How often you you change you crankcase oil?
February 10, 2012 - 9:45pm
#18
No Greasecar kit has ever had a full return. They are all looped. Nor is any fuel returned to the diesel tank during purge.
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The engine's water coolant is the more important number. I would install an engine thermostat that is in the 180F range or higher. The VO temp should be as high as possible via flat plate heat exchanger, heated VO oil filter or electric heat. HEAT is the friend of VO for better combustion.