Routing Revisited - Veggie Mode Uses Diesel
March 13, 2006 - 12:13pm
Even though my system was installed back in October 2005, it has really only been "online" on the road continuously since late Feb. 06. So I consider my system "new" and am analyzing its performance from that angle. ..
And this angle looks to me like Vanessa is burning diesel in veggie mode. I SMELL veggie burning, but my diesel fuel gauge needle continues to move closer to "empty" even though I am constantly switched to veggie.
NOTE: This was true on my first real road trip (400 miles) a week ago AND it was something I noticed my very first day on the road back in October using store-bought oil. My co-pilot that day noticed it first, so I made a note but never got the chance to follow-up due to all the problems that occurred after chicken fat and cold weather and tranny and....
Recent Follow-UP: I have done some standard testing of different segments in her system, and here's what I know:
I am SURE her Pollak 6 port is working properly
I am SURE there is no clogged veggie filter
I am SURE the veggie has low viscosity (not too thick)
I am SURE her Pollak routing is correct per the standard
diagram for connecting an AUX tank
So I looked at her two fuel systems on paper again. Comparing them apples to apples, the one thing they DO NOT have in common is the stock lift pump. The diesel side uses the lift pump after the plastic pre-filter, and the veggie side does not. So, fuel routing is and always has been as follows:
diesel feed/prefilter/lift pump/filter/Pollak/IP
and
veggie feed/filter/Pollak/IP
I have observed that her stock LIFT PUMP does a terrific job of pulling in the diesel, even after I disconnected a diesel hose while the engine was running. So I am wondering, is it doing TOO GOOD a job and not allowing the veggie to flow fully? In other words, is the veggie fuel flow not able to compete with only the IP to move it along?
I know most of you don't like the Pollak 6 port, but I don't see any reason to replace it since the routing diagrams for other types of switches/solenoids are the same - they would not move veggie thru the lift pump.
I'm thinking I need a 12v elec. pump for the veggie side so it can compete with the suction force being produced on the diesel side. Without shooting down the Pollak, can anybody provide a 2nd opinion, or insight on something I've missed?
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Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 13, 2006 - 1:52pm
#2
Yes, I did attach a pump to the "fuel out" port. I put it in diesel mode, and the pump sucked diesel out. I switched to veggie mode, and I was able to pump veggie out. (The collection container I used was white plastic, so I could easily identify what was going in). I am sure I identified the Pollak ports correctly (they are different sizes, makes it easier).
BIG QUESTION: Why doesn't my Benz manual show a "lift pump" in the diagrams? How do I know which is the IP and which is the LP? Is it possible I have hoses connected backwards on them? If I had them hooked up backwards, would I know it? I always thought the LP was to the right of the manual primer pump and the IP was to the left...now I'm not sure. The manual says the IP is the part with the manual pump attached.
So where's my LP?
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 13, 2006 - 2:05pm
#3
March 13, 2006 - 3:54pm
#4
You aren't dead-heading your diesel, are you? Your description left that detail out.
March 13, 2006 - 8:56pm
#5
Quote:
Originally posted by: 81SD
You aren't dead-heading your diesel, are you? Your description left that detail out.
I think that's a good call. IIRC, she had a hose pop off and thought it was due to her arthritis and not able to tighten the hose clamp enough. All the hoses should be under vacuum except the return so non of the supply hoses, VO or diesel, should blow off like that under normal circumstances, even without hose clamps.
I am repeating my suggestion: Get help. Find a local experienced greaser, buy him lunch and a beer and have him look at your system. 15 minutes is all it takes. It's got to be something stupid. This is not rocket science and should not be that hard. Stop banging your head against the wall.
I want to see Vanessa running on grease!!!!!
March 13, 2006 - 10:55pm
#6
Karen,
Take a pic of the fuel system near the LP/IP and email it to me so I can see what you have hooked up where. Honestly, you should have both fuel systems being pulled thru the pollack. Give me a look
-------------------------
Steve M
1985 300SD (Benny)
Using what other people throw away in a dumpster for your personal use makes you a BUM! Selling what other people throw away in a dumpster makes you a GENIUS! Go figure.
March 14, 2006 - 7:01am
#7
WHAT IS DEADHEADING AND HOW WOULD I KNOW I WAS DOING IT?
STEVE: The PULL cannot compare to the PUSH going on.
I was up til midnight and I changed everything since I couldn't locate a 12v fuel pump to add. I still can't find my camera, I'll try to diagram what I had and what I have now and scan and post them so you guys can see.
WHAT I HAD: Her connections were the same as they'd always been, per the Benz diagram Steve sent me long ago:
DIESEL and VEGGIE go from their respective filters into the Pollak thru separate ports.
There's ONE shared fuel line OUT to the engine.
The OUT line from the Pollak connects to the hose barb on the LEFT and slightly ABOVE the manual primer pump handle. This barb is NOT the one that goes to the diesel filter IN nut. This barb has it's own NUT and is on the face of the injector bank.
The connection to the RIGHT of the manual primer pump was the original connection and I never changed it (i.e., small plastic prefilter leading off of metal diesel supply line).
WHY I MADE THE CHANGE: Because of what I saw. The car was running in Veggie Mode. I pulled the DIESEL supply IN line off the Pollak (that line being also the diesel filter OUT line). Diesel was GUSHING out - it was being PUSHED by something thru the filter! I put my finger over the hose end and it was like putting my finger over a running garden hose. I ended up with diesel all over ME, the garage, the car....the force was incredible.
I switched the Pollak to diesel mode, it kept gushing like Old Faithful. I actually had to SHUT THE CAR DOWN to get the diesel to stop pumping out of the hose from the diesel filter!
I repeated this with the veggie line in veggie mode and it was exactly opposite. The hose from the veggie filter did not pump veggie out the end like a fountain. Which makes sense: There's no pump behind her veggie filter, and no pump in front of her filter, and the ONLY point at which veggie connected to the engine at all was at that ONE hose barb to the LEFT and above the primer pump handle, where the SHARED FUEL OUT HOSE of the Pollak was connected.
I assume that the connection into the injectors at that NUT in question (?) was supposed to SUCK veggie out thru the Pollak, right? Well, from what I saw what little suction force being created could not *possibly* compete with the force of the PUSH happening on the diesel side! There is no similar push for veggie. This explains why she burns a *little* veggie in veggie mode but mostly uses diesel. It's not the Pollak's fault. She was doing this last October, from DAY ONE. That's why I got into trouble that night when I let her diesel tank get too empty. This explains so much...
By comparing the exact routes both fuel supplies were taking the only explanation for the diesel being PUSHED thru its filter HAD to be the ONE connection point that diesel did not SHARE with the veggie supply, that being what my manual identifies as my IP, which, based on the Benz manual, is the hose barb to the RIGHT of the manual primer pump handle, the one where the small plastic prefilter has always hooked into.
So I changed everything to allow the veggie supply line to ALSO be routed thru what the manual says is my IP.
EVERYONE: My CD manual does not list my car as having a fuel pump or a lift pump. The only pumps it lists are vacuum pump, water pump, and injection pump. So perhaps the 240D is more different from a 300SD than we thought? Thus the confusion?
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 14, 2006 - 9:47am
#8
OKAY, I SAW IT. I went over my CD manual again, the FUEL PUMP is the piece with the Bosch label on it that has the manual primer pump built into it.
And the Injection Pump is basically that entire piece of hardware with the injectors attached to it. I have been calling it the "injector bank" and I see from the diagrams that the whole large thing is the IP.
CHANGE I MADE LAST NIGHT: So, what I basically did last night was route BOTH types of fuel thru the Benz fuel pump. Which means that both fuels are being pushed into the large diesel filter, I know. I won't leave it that way.
I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE DIESEL BEING PUSHED THRU IT'S FILTER WITH SO MUCH FORCE THAT IT DOES NOT ALLOW THE VEGGIE TO GET PULLED INTO THE IP WHEN THE POLLAK IS IN VEGGIE MODE.
The two systems do not match up if only one of them has a fuel pump to move things along. That's how it looked to me. And the suction from the IP that is acting on the veggie is not enough to overcome the constant pushing by the diesel side. I can't be the only one with a 240D who has experienced this, can I?
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 14, 2006 - 10:30am
#9
Deadheading is same as blocked off. When you put your finger over a flowing garden hose you have dead headed it.
Please stop torturing us with word descriptions of your system and post a diagram. It is confusing and a waste of time to try to follow.
Seek local help (mechanical). If you continue to bang your head against the wall, seek the other kind of help. -:)
March 14, 2006 - 10:47am
#10
If the valve is working correctly and both fuels go throught he valve before any pumps there would be no possible way for you to be haveing this kind of problem. See when a valve switches from 1 fuel to the other there no longer is any pressure or suction or whatever to move the other fuel.
Example. if you system was set up to flow through filter then to the pollack then into the engine and both systems used a pump in there tanks. When you switch from diesel to veg now only veg will be able to flow into the engine.
The way you are describing this problem the only possible problem i can imagine would be with the pollack. Unless there is somewhere else where the 2 fuels join together. Pictures or a diagram would definantly help with trying to figure this out.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
March 14, 2006 - 10:48am
#11
He really is giveing you good advice swimgym. Get someone to help you! I have changed a few parts in my time, and have a general idea as to what I am doing, but bet you butt that I will go to either my stepfather (big rig shop owner) or where I worked during summers while in college (AC Delco store with a shop) and ask for a hand with some of the stuff I am not 100% about. I think that there are some diagrams for the way your car should be plumed on the frybrid site, or if you ask fattywagenman he may be able to show you one.
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chris
March 14, 2006 - 10:47am
#12
Pardon me, but I am ALLOWED to share my misery because I put this together with direct help from another experienced poster with whom I did trade diagrams, and whose instructions I followed to the letter.
I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. I've been tortured for 4 months not really knowing WHY my system seemed to fail on its FIRST DAY when it was the best design I could provide based on designs created by experts, with the best hardware I could manage and, in fact, was even MORE complicated (hah!) than a local greaser originally advised.
I think this problem bears examination by the general greasing community since it appears to be inherently a "Benz-related" situation. And it's important to examine why theories do not pan out, rather than just chalking it up to operator error. It's important to ask why.
"Why is a 2nd fuel system for greasing a standard recommendation when a 2nd fuel pump is not?"
"Why do we assume or expect the IP to do 2 jobs for grease when Mercedes engineers apparently didn't hold that expection for diesel?"
I would also like to point out that the Pollak install diagram assumes a 2nd pump will be used - so if tank switching doesn't work out with a standard greasecar design, I hardly think the hardware is to blame.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 14, 2006 - 11:12am
#13
That's exactly what I'm doing. Nobody seems to want to acknowledge that I had/have a good system and it was installed properly and perhaps the problem is beyond what most greasers assume to be the norm.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 14, 2006 - 2:25pm
#14
Perhaps we don't understand the problem. From a logical standpoint there are not many things that can go wrong with a conversion. It is hoses and switches and valves. Hoses can't blead diesel fuel into a veg oil tank by themself. Switches are not in touch with diesel. And pollacks are known to fail. Normally we don't use a lift pump on veg oil because we also don't have a return going back to the tank so the IP pushes the excess it draws back into itself so there is less strain then if it was returning to the tank.
So if you have a problem with the diesel fuel level dropping while running on veg oil logically there is only 2 real possibilities that it could be if a problem with the grease kit. Either a valve failure or a hose is leaking.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
March 14, 2006 - 2:48pm
#15
Opinion: Assuming the DC motor for the pollack always has power in either direction then the only possible explanation is that the pressure of the diesel is puts the pollack in partially veg but mostly diesel mode.
If it were me I would either Put a 3 port before the fuel pump allowing diesel or veggie through it. Leave the pollack as it is so the veggie doesn't go through the diesel filter. And/Or As part of the switchover turn off the fuel pump so diesel is no longer being pushed through the pollack.
Ce
-------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
March 14, 2006 - 5:23pm
#16
If you are running diesel through the lift pump (fuel pump) and then straight into your Pollak valve, that is called "dead heading" and it's not a good idea. You end up with a lot of pressure on the Pollak valve and are putting excess wear on that fuel pump. If you do NOT have a fuel pump pushing grease to the Pollak valve - and through it to the IP, your IP will starve for fuel. The suction produced by the Benz (300 or 240) is NOT enough to run the engine properly. If the car runs, it's probably not healthy for the IP.
If you are dead heading your diesel and not pushing the grease to the IP AND your Pollak valve is not able to contain the diesel pressure, you are probably pushing diesel right through it to the IP. That's not a good sign for the valve - it may be bad.
Once suggestion is to reroute your lines so that the mechanical lift pump is AFTER the Pollak valve - so both fuel sources are sucked through and pushed to the IP. The one problem with that is you'll need to make sure your hose clamps are tight and your filters are sealed. Otherwise you'll get an air leak... Another suggestion is to put a fuel pressure sensor after the pump (or a vacuum sensor before the pump) - when it starts dropping (or the vacuum increases), it means you need a new filter.
March 14, 2006 - 6:38pm
#17
Karen, keep at it. and ask all the question you want to. you will get it going. some of the grease companys like to pull the diesel through the diesel filter. and pull the veggie through the veggie filter. that means you have to switch your fuel line for the diesel side.
-------------------------
My Forum, My Web,
E-Mail, My Blog ,
March 14, 2006 - 8:01pm
#18
I have a brand new Pollak valve in my hand (3 way) and it has a little label on it that says" Caution - 8 psi maximum vacuum. Do NOT pressurize inlet ports."
The fuel pump is pressurizing the diesel inlet in your set-up and is forcing diesel through when you are on VO, hence the diesel useage.
Either you should replace the valve with one that can take pressure or run the valve before the lift pump. If mercedes uses a lift pump for diesel it probably is a good idea to use one for the VO too.(after the valve)
Michiel
March 14, 2006 - 8:44pm
#19
Ah,
The pollak valve debate continues.
The 6 PORT MOTOR driven setup is good for 60 Psi
BUT the max temp is 180 F Im in NE so this shouldn't be an issue.
Here is a good link to review
://www.plantdrive.com/page0/11/11.html
-------------------------
" I did NOT have sex with that woman"
March 15, 2006 - 4:14am
#20
That depends bad boy. If your pollack is close to the engine and you get good heat your pollack may very well see temps in the 190's or more. Especially come summer time. If you have a VW its just really good practice to junk pollacks all together its too much of a liability. For a MB that has a nearly inderstructable engine and pump its not so bad it just gets annoying if a pollack fails. For a VW if it fails on veg oil the pump is doomed. Myself as an example if that pollack gets hot just the pressure from the return line feeding back in to the valve is enough to make it break.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
March 15, 2006 - 7:12am
#21
"Nobody seems to want to acknowledge that I had/have a good system and it was installed properly and perhaps the problem is beyond what most greasers assume to be the norm."
Ok you designed the best system possible and did a great job installing it. Feel better now?
March 15, 2006 - 6:58am
#22
After consulting with my co-pilot from 10/22 over a bottle of 1800 Tequila last night, it became clear that this is NOT and NEVER WAS about the Pollak. So please everybody change channels!
The change I made Mon. night involved connecting the fuel/lift pump AFTER the Pollak. My original connection instructions last October advised to connect the diesel OUT port on the diesel filter to the diesel IN port on the Pollak, so I did. That resulted in the fuel/lift pump being located *before* the Pollak. I have been following-up on why this occurred...
WHY I AM SO BUMMED: In NONE of the system design documentation on Frybrid's site, which I used as the basis for Vanessa's design, does it indicate that the Fuel/Lift Pump *must be directly linked* to the Injection Pump in order for both diesel and veggie to be successfully pulled into the injectors from their respective filters! It also does not indicate the importance of placing the fuel/lift pump *after* any switch being used! In fact, it doesn't even identify that piece of hardware AT ALL!
Consequently, the stock FUEL/LIFT PUMP was not included as a factor in OR connection point for my design! I don't understand why I am so totally ALONE in feeling that Frybrid's not outlining this specific detail is a GLARING OMISSION in the content of important reference material. I even went thru the Frybrid install manual AND the additional manual for Benz installs, and NOWHERE did I see this specific detail outlined! I had to DIG UP THIS PROCEDURE OUT OF A USER FORUM POST! From someone as confused as I.
YOU WILL NOTE: That in all of the Frybrid system charts ONLY THE IP is documented as a device and connection point in a greasecar conversion - this, therefore, implies that cars either DO NOT HAVE fuel pumps, or the fuel pumps they do have ARE NOT NEEDED for a greasecar system to function!
I can only surmise that because the system designer "knows" that the LP and IP are directly linked, then the assumption is made that everyone else will know this also - so only a single identifying lable of "IP" is given to what is really TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT DEVICES! How TOTALLY INACCURATE AND FALACIOUS COULD IT BE????
I don't know cars but I DO know documentation - I've worked with programmers and system designers for years, not to mention having mapped out my own systems and created countless flowcharts for various projects.
NOT DOCUMENTING THE PRESENCE AND SIGNIFICANCE OF THE STOCK FUEL PUMP IN ANY GREASECAR DESIGN IS AN EGREGIOUS OMISSION AND A FATAL FLAW WHICH WILL RESULT IN SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT FUNCTION AS INTENDED!
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 8:09am
#23
Now I agree that it could be clearer that the "lift pump" and "injection pump" are two different items but the diagrams do show them. I THINK I was remembering this drawing when I made the above suggestion.
Ce
-------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
March 15, 2006 - 8:18am
#24
ceiii2000, that's the ONE diagram I did not see. Thank you. Better late than never.
Last year I located and printed out the diagrams Chris provides on his website - I didn't even *look* for diagrams on the forums because I wanted the "official" documentation to go by.
The "official" charts do not have this detail, and they should. Even if he intended them to be just for generic reference applicable to ALL vehicles, it is still inaccurate and misleading to completely leave out an individual hardware part that must be included in the design functionality. I think the omission is particularly egregious.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 8:27am
#25
Say what you want about pollacks but there are still only 2 companys left that use them on conversions and there is a reason they are not nearly as widly used as they used to be. If you had a new greasecar valve or a frybird valve this leak would probably not have even been a problem because they are rated to be able to withstand the pressure. pollacks on the other hand are frail and the motor can be pushed out of place with fuel pressure. I consider any conversion with a pollack in the desighn to be faulty at best especiall with a closed loop return. A closed loop return can cause enough pressure on the pollack to make it stay in veg mode regardless of switch position. Veg mode on cold VW = dead IP dead IP =1k+$. A MB can probably take that kind of abuse without major damadge just major inconveniance. Personally i think you would do yourself a world of good to replace that pollack with something specifically made to witstand the pressure and heat typically found in conversion systems because with a looped return going to a pollack valve there is allways a chance one day for that valve to just up an totally fail.
But hey who am i just because i had to pay for a new IP due to a pollack failure means i know nothing about the flaws of those dam valves.
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
March 15, 2006 - 9:15am
#26
A hardware failure would be easy to live with compared to knowing that I have wasted well OVER $1,000 plus hundreds of miserable hours in my garage needlessly due to incomplete and misleading documentation.
I highly recommend the quiet contemplative sipping of 1800 Reposado Tequila to help get over it and move on.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 9:31am
#27
Quote:
Originally posted by: swimgym
After consulting with my co-pilot from 10/22 over a bottle of 1800 Tequila last night, it became clear that this is NOT and NEVER WAS about the Pollak. So please everybody change channels!
The change I made Mon. night involved connecting the fuel/lift pump AFTER the Pollak. My original connection instructions last October advised to connect the diesel OUT port on the diesel filter to the diesel IN port on the Pollak, so I did. That resulted in the fuel/lift pump being located *before* the Pollak. I have been following-up on why this occurred...
WHY I AM SO BUMMED: In NONE of the system design documentation on Frybrid's site, which I used as the basis for Vanessa's design, does it indicate that the Fuel/Lift Pump *must be directly linked* to the Injection Pump in order for both diesel and veggie to be successfully pulled into the injectors from their respective filters! It also does not indicate the importance of placing the fuel/lift pump *after* any switch being used! In fact, it doesn't even identify that piece of hardware AT ALL!
Consequently, the stock FUEL/LIFT PUMP was not included as a factor in OR connection point for my design! I don't understand why I am so totally ALONE in feeling that Frybrid's not outlining this specific detail is a GLARING OMISSION in the content of important reference material. I even went thru the Frybrid install manual AND the additional manual for Benz installs, and NOWHERE did I see this specific detail outlined! I had to DIG UP THIS PROCEDURE OUT OF A USER FORUM POST! From someone as confused as I.
YOU WILL NOTE: That in all of the Frybrid system charts ONLY THE IP is documented as a device and connection point in a greasecar conversion - this, therefore, implies that cars either DO NOT HAVE fuel pumps, or the fuel pumps they do have ARE NOT NEEDED for a greasecar system to function!
I can only surmise that because the system designer "knows" that the LP and IP are directly linked, then the assumption is made that everyone else will know this also - so only a single identifying lable of "IP" is given to what is really TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT DEVICES! How TOTALLY INACCURATE AND FALACIOUS COULD IT BE????
I don't know cars but I DO know documentation - I've worked with programmers and system designers for years, not to mention having mapped out my own systems and created countless flowcharts for various projects.
NOT DOCUMENTING THE PRESENCE AND SIGNIFICANCE OF THE STOCK FUEL PUMP IN ANY GREASECAR DESIGN IS AN EGREGIOUS OMISSION AND A FATAL FLAW WHICH WILL RESULT IN SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT FUNCTION AS INTENDED!
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
I think I see the reason for the confusion... The Frybrid diagrams are all VW based. In the VW diesels, the IP sucks - literally. It provides the functionality of the lift pump - hence the omission in the diagrams. The Mercedes IP does NOT suck like the VW ones. The diagrams are correct - just not for your vehicle.
This entire ordeal is a great example why every "new" design should be tossed around for input by others that are running already. It could have saved you a lot of time and effort - and maybe a hangover! Most of us would have spotted this problem in a heartbeat and pointed it out for you. When you described your system, I asked about the dead-heading - it was apparent that you had no lift pump for WVO and had the stock lift pump pushing fuel into the Pollak valve regardless of where the WVO/diesel selector was positioned.
I don't think Frybrid posts greasecar designs... Not that it matters - you were building your own design. How many successful WVO installations have you done? How many have you designed yourself? The point to these questions is that you are not a full-fledged diesel mechanic yet, but you are getting there! I wouldn't worry too much about this - you've
March 15, 2006 - 10:50am
#28
Reposado 1800 is smooth and well-made and does not create a hangover.
I must correct myself a bit - there is ONE diagram on the Frybrid website under "system," and the complete collection of diagrams is posted by Chris on the Frybrid Forum (Jan. 2005) under "Forums" "Reference" "Diagrams." I located them while doing prep research for my design last year.
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Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 11:03am
#29
Unless that alcohol has a good deal of water in it it will cause a hangover if you drink enough of it. Easy way to avoid a hangover is to drink water either during or after drinking. But thats totally beside the point :)
-------------------------
01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
March 15, 2006 - 11:37am
#30
Nope, no water. I'm serious....something about my body chemistry and really good tequila, I guess. No hangover.
The *financial* hangover, however, will remain for quite some time, I'm sure. :-(
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 12:06pm
#31
Karen,
If I'm understanding the problem, it sounds like you have a pump pushing on the diesel side which may (or may not, but probably is) forcing the diesel through the valve even when switched to WVO.
Well, here's my simple thinking. Cut the wire to the pushing diesel pump, wire it to a switch or part of your circuit. When you're running diesel, power it up. When you're running WVO, kill it...
99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. Keep trying!
-tony
March 15, 2006 - 12:23pm
#32
Quote:
Originally posted by: TexasTony
Karen,
If I'm understanding the problem, it sounds like you have a pump pushing on the diesel side which may (or may not, but probably is) forcing the diesel through the valve even when switched to WVO.
Well, here's my simple thinking. Cut the wire to the pushing diesel pump, wire it to a switch or part of your circuit. When you're running diesel, power it up. When you're running WVO, kill it...
99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. Keep trying!
-tony
The catch is that it is a mechanical fuel pump - I'm not sure which wire you are talking about! I'm guessing your background on WVO is with newer trucks... Not older Benz's!
Also - there was no fuel pump pushing or pulling the WVO - so fuel pressure on WVO would be zero. If the IP was able to suck hard enough to pull some in at idle, great - but freeway speeds probably would not happen and the strain on the IP would be pretty severe.
I'd recommend skipping the "infinite number of monkeys" solutions - it's much quicker to try something that works first - rather than trying EVERYTHING possible and stopping when you find something that works!
With the two fuel sources going through their filters, straight to the Pollak valve, the Pollak output going to the fuel pump - and then to the IP - she should get fuel pressure with both fuels. It would be a good idea to put a glass inline filter between the fuel pump and the IP - on the off chance anything lets loose along the way, the debris should end up in this filter rather than in the IP.
March 15, 2006 - 12:14pm
#33
Tony, thanks much. The problem, in short, was incorrect fuel routing location of the stock diesel lift pump. I followed a set diagram, but the LP was not diagramed, so I started my re-routing from the *diesel filter* when I should have started from the *diesel fuel line* instead.
Four months ago I was briefly online but it seemed I had incurable, intermittent "air" in the fuel path - this lead me to break a fitting on my $100 heated filter. Now I know the cause of the "air" and I was able to duplicate that problem on Tuesday.
The healthy little diesel pump was pushing diesel thru the Pollak while the Pollak was in veggie mode and the IP was trying to suck in veggie against the force of the pushing diesel. But the veggie not having its own pump, the IP was only able to half-ass connect with it, so the IP just ended up sucking in air.
The problem was "intermittent" in nature because 95% of the time the diesel was pushing its way thru the Pollak into the IP overriding the actual valve position, which is why Vanessa *smelled* like veggie but was *costing* like diesel.
I have made a temporary correction. Tomorrow night I will make a permanent correction.
BENZ OWNERS: Did you KNOW that Chris at Frybrid has documented the procedure of running a hose FROM the OUT port of the lift pump directly to the IN port of the IP for doing a Benz conversion? I would have thought that would be a bad idea (pushing on a device that's supposed to be pulling), but it's the only way you can connect your fuel path and use the Bosch lift pump for both veggie and diesel.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 12:33pm
#34
Ironically, I HAVE an infinite number of monkeys in my garage, and even more ironic is that they all look just like me.
I have achieved a tequila-fueled focus and know EXACTLY what I need to do.
2 steps forward, 3 steps back...but not for much longer.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 15, 2006 - 8:03pm
#35
69,000 veggie miles with my pollac ontop of my engine... hey kinky. do you want a drawing? and it might be better if you reroute so you pull diesel through your filter and pull veggie through your veggie filter... i can also give you a drawing where you push veggie through veggie filter and push diesel through diesel filter. but you will need another 3 way valve. for the return lines..
-------------------------
My Forum, My Web,
E-Mail, My Blog ,
March 16, 2006 - 6:40am
#36
No, I don't need a drawing, thanks anyways. What I needed last October was a drawing with ALL the parts designated.
The POLLAK ROUTING I did originally was fine, inasmuch as I had veggie IN/OUT and diesel IN/OUT going to the correct ports. MERGED FUEL OUT/IN was also correct.
ERROR POINT: I started changing hose connections at the diesel filter because the chart I was using indicated that was where the first change needed to be made. WRONG. This was not the correct chart for my car because the chart did not show any changes to be made to the METAL DIESEL IN LINE or THE DIESEL IN TO THE LP PORT. I left this out completely.
CONFUSING PROBLEM SYMPTOMS: Because I had my stock lift/fuel pump incorrectly located BEFORE the fuel tank selector switch (Pollak) and didn't know it, I have spent the past 4 months, all the way up to THIS PAST MONDAY basically, repeatedly chasing and fixing the following:
FUEL STARVATION, VEGGIE ONLY
AIR IN FUEL LINE, VEGGIE ONLY
CLOGGED FILTERS, VEGGIE ONLY
CAR DYING for reasons above
CAR NOT STARTING for reasons above
THE FUEL/LIFT PUMP BEING IN THE WRONG LOCATION OF YOUR CONVERTED FUEL PATH WILL PRODUCE THE ABOVE SYMPTOMS, AND ON AN INTERMITTENT BASIS. THIS WILL LEAD TO INSANITY AND/OR PUSHING YOUR CAR INTO THE RIVER.
...Because you think you got it nailed and replaced the filter, then it happens again 2 days later... Monday, I thought I had clogged another veggie filter. I left it in there. TODAY, after CORRECTING MY ROUTING SCHEME, I HAVE NO AIR and NO CLOGGED FILTER. I AM RUNNING ON VEGGIE 100%.
What I do have is about $75 worth of fuel filter carcasses littering my garage floor. I am willing to bet serious money that they are not clogged, never were clogged, and are usable.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 16, 2006 - 7:17am
#37
Karen! Congrats on getting your system up and running! It's too late for your sanity, but hopefully you'll help save someone else's. Keep those old filters - you are probably correct that they are not clogged. Keep them clean though...
Feels good when it all works, doesn't it?
March 16, 2006 - 7:24am
#38
If you had an experienced mercedes greaser look at your install last Oct or if you had a diagram of your system to show here, you would have saved yourself 5 months of head banging. Pictures would have been better since I'm not sure if you could have drawn a correct diagram since until yesterday, you were not sure of where the IP and fuel pump is.
What the lessons learned here?
March 16, 2006 - 7:51am
#39
The actual "feeling good" will take a little more time to occur.
Right now all I have to sustain me is the knowledge that even though I was basically forced to "sit out" the winter and my "greasecar" has YET to save me ONE DIME (and at one point was actually COSTING ME about $11.00 a day to drive on diesel)....
The GOOD thing is that I have put 7,000 miles on Vanessa since I bought her last September, which is 7,000 miles I DIDN'T put on my 2003 Honda Element, which means it still has less than 50,000 miles on it, which will enable me to sell it and therefore PREVENT me from losing the rest of my shirt.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 16, 2006 - 8:51am
#40
How far do you drive each day? A 240D doesn't drink much fuel.
Before you drive too far, I'd still recommend a temp gauge, a pressure gauge and an inline glass fuel filter placed between your fuel pump and your IP. It will give you all of the info you need to be sure things are working well - and that inline fuel filter can catch any debris if anything goes wrong.
Heat your filter - otherwise they will prematurely clog. It won't be so bad over the summer - but come winter time you'll get ~1000 miles out of a filter instead of ~6000+. Thicker fats will plug the filter - when they should melt through and burn.
March 16, 2006 - 8:57am
#41
604TD, you need to read all the posts if you want to question a poster.
I wasn't confused about the IP until THIS week. The confusion was of the type "If YOU are the IP, then what the hell are YOU?" Discovering something that didn't have a name in the reference material that SHOULD have had a name.
There was no reason for me to post photos because every problem I had after her maiden voyage was due to "air" and/or "fuel starvation." Nobody, including me, ever investigated the *cause* of those symptoms beyond the usual. Nobody asks for photos for those problems.
What I learned was not new to me, I had posted about it before - INACCURATE DOCUMENTATION resulting in flawed planning and missing pieces to a puzzle. This documentation was designated as General Reference Material by the creator, but the content does not reflect that.
EXPERTS ASSUMING a novice will just KNOW that if Part A is connected to Part B then any reference to Part A includes both physical parts. And Experts not explaining HOW Part A and Part B get connected in the first place.
The Powerstroke guys are having a similar problem with their install instructions from Greasecar. They need a checkvalve, and it's not mentioned in the material. They end up missing a piece and their problems are pointing to "air" and such, and they are going crazy too.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 16, 2006 - 11:51am
#42
I do not have time to read all your posts, which is too many and mostly wasted which never went anywhere as far as getting results in getting your car running. You blame documentation that is posted for free. What else do you expect? Why don't you sue him? Do you believe everything you read on the internet? Ever heard of cross checking or bounce the info off someone else? The Frybrid diagram is confusing and the Mercedes diesel fuel system is different than most with a separate external mechanical lift pump. It is your job to identify each component of the fuel system that you have to tie into and know the correct name of each component so you can discuss it without causing confusion. If you had posted photos and diagrams of your system early on instead posting photos of yourself, you would have been up and running back in Oct because the error you made would have been spotted back then. It's funny you still insist photos and diagrams are not necessary. You are a real hard head as FG says.
March 16, 2006 - 12:14pm
#43
604TD, I was asked for photos on Monday. On TUESDAY I knew where the problem was coming from. Photos were a moot point (and my camera is still MIA).
81SD, I am proud to say that Vanessa gets 24 mpg diesel, on the NOSE, no more, no less. Exactly 24 mpg.
I calculated I was spending about $11.00 a day due to:
Pumping endless gallons of diesel at $2.99 each) out thru her manual primer pump to get rid of "air"
Driving untold miles in large circles around my neighborhood test driving for signs of "air" and "clogged filter"
Costs of new filters to replace "clogged" ones
Costs of more hoses to replace all my original ones
Costs of towing due to dead battery and battery recharge
Having to go out of town for emergencies, etc. more than usual and having to use diesel
Yes, it all adds up to some scary numbers. I will never see the money again. Good news is that if you spend more on diesel than you do on groceries you can drop a few pounds easy!
On a final note, I am VERY proud to say that thru this entire ordeal I never, NOT ONCE, EVER broke down in tears and sobbed. Not the night my special date was ruined because I was trying to run grease and couldn't (and ran out of diesel); not the night I broke the filter I had spent 3 weeks putting together from scratch; not the day her transmission seal busted, nor the day the tranny shop called to tell me I had to have it rebuilt or tow the pieces home in her trunk; not the day I took everything apart and put it all back in again only to have the problems remain; and I didn't cry the night it took me 4 hours to drive 100 miles because I stopped 4 times in the cold rain to change a "clogged filter."
Nope, not me. I may have my butt kicked, but I won't be whipped.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 16, 2006 - 2:11pm
#44
You'll break down in tears and sob the next time you fill up with diesel! Ow - prices are going up again! $0.20 on the gas pumps today. I put in $30 today - I think it got the side of the tank damp briefly... I'll kick over the biodiesel this weekend and work on filling the tank the rest of the way.
24 mpg out of a 240 is NOT good. You may want to get that thing looked at. I pulled 30 mpg reliably out of my old 300SD - and I've heard that 240D's typically get 35+ mpg. Either you are idling too much, or the emergency brake is on! My '96 Dodge truck gets close to what you are getting.
Chalk up the time spent on the car as tuition. Everybody has to learn at some point. You know more this week than you did last week! You are probably getting to know that engine compartment quite well!
March 16, 2006 - 1:19pm
#45
Hi Karen:
I have read most of the posts here at GC and all of your posts. Yours have been very entertaining. I have one daugther that has worked with me to learn automechanics, now she has good experience and can tackle most light auto work on her own.
I completed all the trade automotive courses in hs, but went to college for half a degree in chemical engineering before my BSCS. I have over the years kept up on my automechanics with about $4000 of car repairs (labor only) per year on my own cars. I maintain a fleet of 6 old cars for my family, of which two are diesel - one with GC kit. Nothing gives experience like doing 25 pairs of brakes on 14 different cars and trucks, this gives you real experience and then you don't need the manual.
You must keep in mind that WVO car conversions are at best on the frontier. They combine complex automechanics, plumbling, and engineering. The smallest difference between two cars can break a good working conversion from car to car. Even from year to year of the same car you find major engineering differences. Good engineering and review is the only solution, like adding a temperature or pressure gauge can give the data that tells you whats (or whats not) really causing the problem. WVO conversions can be installed by the novice, but debugging self designed or website copied design systems - needs the skills from many experienced people(like this form).
In my day job as computer engineer, the programming world does generally document all systems pretty well(i.e. CMM). In the automotive world, the documentation and repair manuals - leave a lot to be desired. My experience has been that all automotive documentation (if there is any), is written for experienced trained automechanic. They assume everything, from when and how much to torque bolts, to the fact that lift pumps are attached to injector pumps. Any experienced mechanic can look at the diesel and tell you where the IP and lift pump are.
I'll quote from your post "Oy, no way, I don't have the capacity for this. Got a good deal from Just Brakes" If you don't feel you can take on brakes, you are at best a very novice automechanic. No problem with this, everybody has to start at the beginning.
You would profit considerably and learn faster, if you would assume that you are novice. Give pictures and diagrams with detailed descriptions of what you did and why, rather than defending your install. Also, how you tested and the resulting data. When doing diagrams, they help you make sure you know what you did - or least you make sure you completely documented your own work (right or wrong). When you post good descriptions and diagrams of your work and problems, others more experienced can review and advise accordingly. Thus, saving you money and time and giving back much needed experience - learned the hard way by doing.
-Jim
-------------------------
-Jim
05 Jeep Liberty CRD
86 MB 300SDL, GreaseCar w/mods
Setting up to make Biodiesel, putting some of my Chemical Engineering to use.
March 16, 2006 - 5:54pm
#46
Jim, thanks for the supportive words. In fact, doing up a diagram by hand on Monday lead me to find the missing link in my routing plan on Tuesday. It wasn't necessary to post it at that point, the light bulb had finally come on. I have an entire plastic binder folder FULL of the diagrams I used, the diagrams I made, and photos of every part and every idea I used to put my system together.
And I DO admit to being a novice. And I DID benefit from other's experience. I now consider myself an expert on "air" and how to overcome it. And I also know that one major problem in just the wrong place will mimic every known problem possible to your system: air, clogs, cold veggie, dirty veggie, too little heat, too loose clamps, dead Pollak, stuck Pollak, and the possibility that it's just because you're a GIRL.
My defensiveness comes from my total disappointment in working so hard to plan and proceed in just the right way only to have it come out wrong anyways. Like redoing my upstairs bath last year (I had already done 2) and getting down to the last piece, the replacement tub spout, and buying a "generic" one and following the instructions only to have it leak *backwards* which I couldn't see - so the first time I have a guest over who uses the shower I end up with 2 gallons of water coming out from behind my kitchen light fixture downstairs, resulting in a hole the size of a tennis ball. And a big mess.
81SD, check your stats. I have a 240D auto transmission, and 24 mpg is right on the money. It is possible I got 26 mpg on the highway, but not likely since I usually drive closer to 80 mph, which results in lower mpg.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 16, 2006 - 6:08pm
#47
March 16, 2006 - 6:00pm
#48
Quote:
Originally posted by: swimgym
81SD, check your stats. I have a 240D auto transmission, and 24 mpg is right on the money. It is possible I got 26 mpg on the highway, but not likely since I usually drive closer to 80 mph, which results in lower mpg.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
Ok - now I don't believe you! I don't think a 240D can reach 80 mph if you push it over a cliff! I've driven two of them - an auto and a stick. The stick was competitive with a non-dual port VW Beetle - the original. The dual port 1600cc would have smoked it. The automatic was unable to get out of it's own way. I was able to push it faster than it could go under it's own power. Maybe yours has the optional foot pedals to help out with the acceleration!
Regardless - if your valves haven't been adjusted in a while, do it! That might help. I did check though, and 26 was a number that came up a few times for the 240D. Amazing.
March 16, 2006 - 6:19pm
#49
I would like to clarify that my design was not "new." I take credit for putting the design together, but in NO WAY did I come up with a better mousetrap. I reviewed what everybody had to say looking for "best practices" to apply and went from there.
All I wanted was a mousetrap that I could manage on my own, that wasn't too complicated but had the right parts in the right places to do the best job possible.
I still think I got that.
-------------------------
Karen in Atlanta
a/k/a PeachGrease
1982 MB 240D (Vanessa)
Self-designed system for
Southern Climates
March 17, 2006 - 10:18am
#50
Hi Karen:
You are having a much better perspective. Very good.
You are letting the car get to your emotions. Cars and SVO conversions do not know whether a girl or guy is attempting to fix them.
Automotive and systems engineering diagnostics do not have emotions. SVO conversions are systems engineering adventures. The biggest mistake that novice's make in system engineering diagnostics is making assumptions and then not changing them when the data shows otherwise. In doing any diagnostic you are wise to make assumptions to reduce the number of possible symptoms that may be causing the problem to a few symptoms to allow quicker resolution with less time investment. That is, assuming that your initial assumptions were correct.
For example, in any SVO system - if the system runs for a 200 miles and then clogs the filter. Is the system ok, problem with oil quality or filter. If you make the assumption that your system is fine, you could be wrong.
You have a couple possibilities here:
Since, the car runs for 200 miles, you assume that the values, fuel lines etc, are together correctly. Otherwise you would not make it 200 miles if your are pumping your diesel back to your veggie tank with the values plumbed wrong.
1) veggie oil quality? You have to verify that your oil quality is good. Is it heated, settled, and filtered to lower micron rating then the onboard filter. If you can't verify this, then you can't assume without good testing. How much solids is in the oil? You should do a cold test, put oil in frig to cloudly, then heat with temperature probe until completely clear. What temp did the oil go completely clear. This is the min temp that your system needs to deliver your veggie to the filter. Otherwise, you will be clogging the filter with solids.
2) Filter problem? Assume that you have a conventional type diesel filter. Assuming that you installed it correctly, then these filters are will proven - the filter is probably ok. Did you change it everytime it clogs, then all is well.
3) SVO conversion runs, but is not quite up to par?
At this point many people make the assumption that the heat in the filter is ok, since, the car runs for 200 miles. This is the evil, without good systems engineering you will go around and around. You would have to install temperature sensors to verify your temperature at the filter. And, as stated in 1) above, you must get a temp that would always deliver unclouded oil to the filter.
Many many people in these forms assume that their system is running ok since the car runs fine for 200 miles. They then spent lots of time and money beating the filterings and oil quality, without visiting their SVO system. They assume that the temperature is good, if the car runs fine for 200 miles. If you don't install an inline temperature gauge to verify that your system is heating the oil into the filter and then the IP at least to 150F, then you are guessing. If you don't have at least 175F at the filter, then you will clog filter regularly at low miles. If you heat, settle, and filter your oil to lower micron rating then your onboard filter, then your onboard filter should last +20k period. Many people say my filter is lasting 800 miles, so my system is good.
-Jim
-------------------------
-Jim
05 Jeep Liberty CRD
86 MB 300SDL, GreaseCar w/mods
Setting up to make Biodiesel, putting some of my Chemical Engineering to use.
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You mean no reason to replace it other then its tendancy to suddenly fail with no warning? If you had a VW it would cost over 1k$ to replace the ip due to a sudden pollack failure. MB's are built a lot stronger tho so your only problem with a valve failure would probably be not being able to start untill the car gets warm.
It could very well be a pollack problem causing a mixture of diesel and veg to be fed into the system btw... but you like those pollacks even after knowing about them suddenly failing. Maybe it is something else... What would cause you to burn veg oil and diesel at the same time tho other then the valve i don't know. Are both guages slowly going down?How do you know the pollack is indeed ok? have you put a pump to it and tested the flow of liquid through the pollack? When they fail there is no way to know if they failed they don't break apart they just dont switch very well and allow leaking and or get stuck in 1 position regardless of what the switch does.
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01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Running on Veg since summer 04 still learning new tricks.
11mm IP + lift pump = POWER
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html