Warm Up Time
August 16, 2004 - 12:45pm
My question is:
How long does it take for the vegi oil to warm up, and how hot does it have to be before I can switch over to the vegi tank? Also, is there a temperature gauge in the tank or a light that lights up, telling me when I can switch over?
Obviously, it will depend on the climate and time of year; perhaps the size of the tank. Please reply with your experiences on these issues.
August 17, 2004 - 10:02am
#2
I used to switch over when the ENGINE temp gauge indicated 160f, I now wait until the car reaches it's normal operating temp 195f. It definitely takes longer in the winter (6-7) miles in the winter and 2-3 in the summer. I have a 98 Jetta and it will never "warm" idling in the drive way, take your car out and go 2 miles, measure the temp drive another 2 then measure again. the two most important things ( in my humble opinion) are the filtering of your oil and WAITING for the proper temp BEFORE switching over.
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KEEP ON GREASIN'
August 17, 2004 - 6:05pm
#3
I also switch my Jetta over to veggie at 190, but I'm pretty sure the tank is not yet at this temperature. It must take a while for 14 gallons of 50 degre oil top reach 190 degrees.
But I'm assuming the oil in my filter and lines probably is close to 190; that's what really matters.
August 18, 2004 - 12:04am
#4
If you have a coolant powered heat exchanger between your filter and your IP, it will greatly speed up your warm up time. You don't need your full 14 gallon tank to be at 180 degrees (that could take hours). You just need it at temp when it enters the engine. If you have a looped fuel return system, you can also switch over a little sooner since the fuel which is returned back into the system is hot already. I put a short 6 inch strip of HIH between my filter and fuel selector to speed up heating. It's the first thing that the coolant line hits.
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 18, 2004 - 10:34am
#5
indagrease, what is a a coolant powered heat exchanger, and do you know if greasecar installs them?
August 18, 2004 - 10:54am
#6
It takes hot coolant from your heater hoses, and uses it to heat the oil. The sell some at www.biodieselsupply.com, or you can make your own. I don't think that Greasecar sells them, but I'm not really sure. I made my own, and installed it myself. It's not very tough. Do you know how to make a hose in a hose setup? Just make a mini version that only heats a six inch section of fuel right before it goes into your engine.
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 18, 2004 - 11:03am
#7
I wouldn't trust myself messing around under the hood. I talk like I know what I'm doing, but I really don't. ...At least I'm putting an effort to do my research! I'll try to find a place that knows how to do it (in the NY/MA area)... Maybe Liquidsolar. Thanks!
August 18, 2004 - 11:32am
#8
No, no, no. Do it yourself. You can do it, I promise. It's easy. It'll be good for you. All you have to do is get the heat exchanger (like one from biodieselsupply.com), 2 heater hoes Tees (from your local auto parts store -- ask the guy at the parts counter if you need 3/4" or 5/8"), and a few feet of heater hose and hose clamps (again from the auto parts store). Once you have the parts, all you have to do is:
1. find your existing heater hoses -- they usually go from the engine to the inside of your cab (or wherever your cabin heater box is located), and out again back to the engine compartment. You'll need to determine which hose goes in to the heater box, and which goes out. Run your engine for a few minutes and feel both hoses to see which gets hot sooner.
2. cut open both of these hoses, and install the two ends of the Tee into these hoses to connect them back together, and secure with hose clamps.
3. now attach 2 lengths of the new heater hose you bought to both of the open outlets on each Tee.
4. connect connect the ends on these 2 new hoses to each end of your heat exchanger (there's 2 outlets on each end, connect heater hoses to the larger outlets. Make sure when you connect the hoses to the exchanger that you have the hotter hose on the outlet closest to the engine.
5. Now connect your fuel line (between your wvo filter and your engine) to the smaller outlers on the exchanger.
6. your done
It sounds a little tricky, but it's not that tough. If you can't do it yourself, try to find a friend to help you, but don't waste $100 to have a shop install it for you, when you can do it in less than a half an hour. Plus, I belive that all Greasers should be intimately familar with the setup of their systems, as many mechanics will have no clue themselves if anything ever goes wrong (which it surely will).
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 18, 2004 - 12:17pm
#9
Inda:
Come on, lets be realistic here. It takes WAY more than a 1/2 hour to install any wvo kit! The trip to the parts store alone is a 1/2 hour!
Yes I agree WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE HIM TO DO IT HIMSELF, but we shouldn't lie to him so that he gets in over his head!
You left out the part about installing a tank, running the lines, drilling holes in the body for coolant lines, installing the FSV and the switch.
This is a full day's job if you have all the parts on hand (which you wont). You could maybe get it done in an hour if you just set the tank on top of the engine!
Im also willing to bet that any mechanic would charge WAY more than $100 to install a kit.
Now I dont mean to discourage you, you can do it! I just want to give you reasonable expectations. But you will run into some situations which require some creative problem solving, and you will be all the more satisfied when you solve these snags and become more familiar with your vehicle. GO FOR IT.
August 18, 2004 - 12:46pm
#10
Thats true. I was only talking about installing a heat exchanger, since thats what he was asking about.
I still belive that every greaser should have their hand in the install, but yes it takes a lot of time, and much help is often needed. It took nearly a week for me to compile all of my parts and install my kit completely.
Installing a heat exchanger, on the other hand is an easy half hour job.
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 18, 2004 - 12:50pm
#11
Oh, and it looks like part of one of my previous post got deleted when I tried to edit the url, so here's that post in it's entirety:
It takes hot coolant from your heater hoses, and uses it to heat the oil. The sell some at www.biodieselsupply.com, or you can make your own. I don't think that Greasecar sells them, but I'm not really sure. I made my own, and installed it myself. It's not very tough. Do you know how to make a hose in a hose setup? Just make a mini version that only heats a six inch section of fuel right before it goes into your engine.
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 18, 2004 - 2:06pm
#12
inda:
Oh, sorry. I was relating your advice to his first post: he doesnt even have a kit yet and didnt know what a heat exchanger was, so I wanted to make sure he wasnt misled.
Yes, the heat exchanger install alone would be quick.
August 18, 2004 - 2:58pm
#13
HAHAHA!!! You guys are great.
I know I should, and I want to know how the system works, (and by the way, I did understand that you were only talking about the instalation of the heat exchanger, indagrease,) but I am not ready to jump right in and do it myself.
It's a funny matter. I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motercycle Maintenance right now, and these same issues come up. I get inspired to learn how to do it myself, but I can't when it is my only vehicle. I sound so negative. I'm sorry.
In the same direction, I was talking to some people about this, and they get grossed out by the idea of filtering WVO. At least I have the guts to do that myself. Go me.
Yay.
August 19, 2004 - 7:23am
#14
Try to find someone educated who will do it WITH YOU, rather than FOR YOU, and you'll come out all the wiser...
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 19, 2004 - 4:59pm
#15
I didn't know anything about cars except how to change the oil before I started. I read Josh Tickell's book "From the Fryer to the Fuel tank." I've done 2 conversions and I can say they are easy to do, even if you don't know anything about cars. I've learned a whole lot from the experience and so will you, Mr. Ryan! And it's fun being an "engineer" for a week. You will appreciate the knowledge you gain from this experience. Just do it!
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If a horse can eat green *&!# and run like a mother-&*#!er then so can {my car}!
-Miles Davis
August 19, 2004 - 8:32pm
#16
I have not yet got my kit, but from reading so far, it seems the only heating ellement is the recirculated engine coolant - Why isn't there an electric heating ellemnt stuck to the bottom of the tank? I used to have a pet python - even he had a hot rock in his cage. Why not get one to run off the auto's elecrtical system? They are great peal n stick items. THere has to be one out ther. I purchased a huge 40 gallon water treatment tank I plan on using to store grease in, and I want to be able to heat that up to seperate the fat from the oil, and will be looking into similar methods to get that up to temp.
Feel free to fire away at me.
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Love Peace and Grease
August 19, 2004 - 9:26pm
#17
Heating with electricity is very inefficient. You would need a huge electric heater to heat up a whole tank, and a car's electrical system doesnt put out enough power to do so.
Its best to use a waste heat from the engine itself.
Think about your home water heater...it is about 50 gallons and it is about 1500 watts, and it takes just that much to heat to 120*F.
Using a heat exchanger from the engine is essentially "free" (ie no additional energy cost).
The peel and stick heaters and your hot rock dont put out nearly the type of heat we are talking about. Engine coolant is perfectly suited to this task cuz its 180-200*F, exactly what we need. Trying to heat your whole system electrically is really a waste of time. The only way you will benefit from electric heating is a small heater just before the pump. This adds a few degrees to just a small volume of oil as it passes by.
Personally I think a simple copper coil in the tank is a weak design though, there is very little surface area to radiate heat to the oil. I have a much hotter heat exchanger in my tank.
What do you mean by "separate oil from the fat"? OIL IS FAT.
August 20, 2004 - 2:04am
#18
AD-
What type of heat exchanger do you have in your tank?
Oh, and where in NorCal are you? I'm in Santa Cruz, if your ever passing through in need of oil...
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I love my kind veggie '77 240D.
August 20, 2004 - 11:27am
#19
In my tank I use a 8-pass oil cooler. You've probably seen them on the old air-cooled vw bugs and busses. Its basically a mini radiator. Its about 16" long and there 8 copper surrounded by a network of aluminum fins. You can also find similar products sold as automatic transmission coolers (although they are usually bigger, I think greasel uses one of these).
People use copper coils cuz its cheap and easy. When talking about heat transfer, the two primary factors affecting the amount of transfer are: the temperature difference between the two objects (delta T) and exposed surface area of the objects. The surface area of a copper tube 1/2" outside diameter x 10 feet long is 188 square inches. My heat exchanger has approx. 10 fins per inch x 16", each fin is 2" x 4" this equates to 1280 square inches, plus the copper tube passing through is another 100. So thats 1400 sqare inches vs. 200.
Im up by the oregon near Yreka. I could spare a few gallons too if you're ever going up I-5.
August 20, 2004 - 3:01pm
#20
"seperate oil from fat......" what I mean is.... uh, I know oil is fat, so I felt goofy typin that - I admit I am new at this, yet very enthusiastic about it. I was reading on these boards about people who collect their oil and then bring it near boil to help seperate the water, waste, contaminants, etc, and then let it cool. All the fats and other junk seperates and floats to the top/sank to the bottom, and could be skimmed off and then have the pure veggie oil pumped into the vehicle tank. Reminds me of mom's left over pot roast or stew. You take it out the next day, and the grease globs float at the top.
Hey, be nice. This isn't the yahoo politics message board here!
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Love Peace and Grease
August 20, 2004 - 9:20pm
#21
AD, you are up in Oregon, near Yreka?
Could it be Ashland?
Email me at kitch876 at yahoo sometime if you want to talk shop, or discuss good restaurants in the area... I'm in Talent.
August 21, 2004 - 9:07am
#22
SilverBunny
I actually live on the CA side of the border, but I spend as much time as possible in ashland, which as you know, has alot more to offer than yreka.
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It depends, all systems are different. There are many variables: ambient temp, size of tank, how full the tank is, which thermostat you have installed, and how you drive.
I think its safe to say most people are able to switch over within 10 miles, probably less for most. The only drawback of a VO system is that its not good for short trips (but short trips arent good for any car). If my total trip is less than about 10 miles, I usually dont switch over (but I dont have a quick flush system installed yet, this is a kit of my own design).
The switch over temp is no less than 160 F, and the hotter the better. You can intall your own temp sensors to indicate when to switch over, or you can experiment like so:
go out first thing in the AM and start up, take not of ambient temp. With a full tank of VO, let the car idle on diesel. Take temp measurements in the VO tank (use a cooking thermo) every few minutes and see how long it takes to get up to 160. Also keep an eye on your engine temp gauge during all this. Note the location of the pointer when the oil reaches 160.
Now you know the MAX time it will take at that ambient temp.
Actual time will be faster when you are really driving the vehicle because the load on the engine makes it heat up much faster than when just idling. You could turn on the AC to add a load to the engine and more closely approximate driving condtions. Also your max time will be longer in winter.
This method is very conservative, erring on the safe side.