A couple questions about set-up?
June 1, 2007 - 3:59pm
Hey folks, first off thanks for an informative community.
A little background info: I'm in the midwest, so temps vary from 10-15F in cold winter, to 105F or so in hot summer. I'm hoping to have a few questions answered that I can't really find definitive answers to without just asking myself:
1 - if I'm doing hose-in-hose, with a coolant-heated pipe going into the tank as well, is that signifigant enough fuel heating for the whole system, minus the heated filter? Do I still need something like the vegtherm?
2 - Is the vegtherm (or equivalent electric heater) an alternative, or a supplement to coolant-based fuel heating?
3 - Depending on the answers above, which is best/most efficient/least expensive?
I'm looking to put together a kit for myself, but buying the solenoids from greasecar. Any other suggestions?
Thank you all!
June 1, 2007 - 4:36pm
#2
brevity,
I just use the GC system with no extra heat here in Minnesota. I keep the VO heated every step of the way with a small exceptions just before the IP. As long as I wait for the engine to warm up I have no problems.
Of course I have a Suburban that gets fairly hot, fairly fast. I've seen some kits that have trouble with heat in cold weather. Make sure everything is heated.
-------------------------
An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys.
June 1, 2007 - 5:04pm
#3
We use a standard greasecar kit and recently added a vegtherm (actually I think we got the mega-therm) to make sure our wvo temp was high enough. It works great and gets the oil at ideal temp quickly (around 175 F). You may not need it in the summer, we have ours on a switch so we can turn it on and off when needed. I also recommend a thermometer on your grease line - very helpful to know what temp your grease is! :)
-------------------------
...just greasin' around in an '82 VW Westy...
our volksvegan adventure
June 2, 2007 - 2:20pm
#4
Hey, thanks guys. I really appreciate the responses.
Where in the line should I put the temp gague? I know it needs to get hot enough to flow, but then still needs to heat more to be at prime atomization level into the injectors, like 175 or so... I've seen a little wrap you put on the injector lines from http://www.fattywagons.com/fwproducts.htm (look under "injection line heaters") that heats it right there, which looks good... So I guess my question here is, with so many components of heat in the line, where would it be best to actually measure the temp?
I think the hose in hose is the best solution, all things considered. From what you guys are saying it's not a bad idea to have a vegtherm as well, for extra measure. If I've got a vegtherm should I still have a heated filter? I'm still a little confused on the two separate 3-way solenoid thing, for returns and stuff. I'll deal with that when I get there I guess.
Thanks, y'all are awesome!
June 2, 2007 - 2:31pm
#5
Hi there,
Congrats on starting a fun project. Brief answers:
Two temp gauges, minimum, IMHO;
- One in the wvo filter's head (this one helps you to time *WHEN* to switch to wvo)
- One just prior to entering the injection pump (this one *CONFIRMS* wvo temp is 160F+ before hitting the engine: vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/Little%20Angel.pdf )
Yes, please consider both wvo filter heating and another auxillary wvo heating source (eg- Vegtherm, flat plate heat exchanger [FPHE], nichrome wire on the injector line [ala Fattywagon], etc.). Department of redundancy department. ;o)
I'd personally want the wvo to temp before the injection pump ("IP"), but some (like those using nichrome), are cool with heating between injection pump and engine. My TDI has a relatively delicate IP relative to you MB owners, so I monitor twice before the IP and also perform all heating before it, too. To each their own, but your car's IP is its 'heart' if ever there was one... pre-IP heating battles IP arteriosclerosis (gunking and depoisiting of wvo 'plaques' within) as efficiently as we can at present.
Regarding 3-way solenoids, there're *many* pix on this forum and others detailing the reasoning... here's one, about halfway down. Might not be your specific rig but the theory is there;
http://greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=11844
(A is the "feed" solenoid", B is the "return one" :)
Respectfully, too, please see the "considerations" link in my sig. Even though biased towards the VW TDI, there's still much info that will lend well to your project.
Good luck!
-------------------------
'03 Jetta GL TDI (Stock? Yeah... *sure* it's stock! :)
Wingnut's HOW TO thread!
GC kit install considerations
June 2, 2007 - 5:39pm
#6
shmcquilkin,
Thanks for the info. I actually found your thread that you mentioned in another post (I think I followed your sig link) a couple hours before your response here. BIG thanks for spending the time to detail out your experiences and advice, and the links to actual parts, etc. is extremely useful.
I like the idea of mounting temp gagues, etc. because I've long been doing car audio and custom switch plates and bezels kinda go with that territory.
June 4, 2007 - 11:06pm
#7
New question: I'm trying to put together my hose-in-hose setup, but I can't figure out how to get the fuel line to come out of the T on the one side, while routing the coolant to the top of the T.
I'm (obviously) not all that knowledgeable about plumbing so I don't know what kind of fittings to use (compression fittings, I guess?) but any tips are much appreciated.
June 5, 2007 - 12:04pm
#8
GC uses a tee where the PEX fuel line goes straight through and a compression fitting slides over the line and seals the PEX. The coolant comes out the middle (top) port on the tee. Not sure if you can find one on Mcmaster.com or if GC makes their own.
Later,
-------------------------
sdeck
2003 Jetta TDI, GreaseCar kit, veg-therm std, TDIHeater, >20,000 veggie miles and counting!
"If you make it idiot proof, nature will make a better idiot"
June 5, 2007 - 10:30pm
#9
Peaber,with your Suburban, what do you think it is the highest safe temperature for the injection pump?
Here in the desert, driving in stop and go traffic, outside temp. was about 105, the oil temp. just before the injection pump was about 195. Do you think that is safe?
June 5, 2007 - 11:46pm
#10
I got mine up to 190 last summer. I don't know how high is safe. I have seen some people here have got their VO up to 210-220F, then they start to worry. I think they were VW's though. I would think the "burb" should be able to handle that. I would start getting nervous up that high though.
-------------------------
An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys.
June 6, 2007 - 6:57am
#11
I remember reading somewhere about the optical sensor in the ip. Not sure what temperatures were mentioned, but that might be the weak link.
June 6, 2007 - 10:10am
#12
Quote:
Originally posted by: shmcquilkin
Hi there,
Congrats on starting a fun project. Brief answers:
Two temp gauges, minimum, IMHO;
- One in the wvo filter's head (this one helps you to time *WHEN* to switch to wvo)
- One just prior to entering the injection pump (this one *CONFIRMS* wvo temp is 160F+ before hitting the engine: vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/Little%20Angel.pdf )
Yes, please consider both wvo filter heating and another auxillary wvo heating source (eg- Vegtherm, flat plate heat exchanger [FPHE], nichrome wire on the injector line [ala Fattywagon], etc.). Department of redundancy department. ;o)
I'd personally want the wvo to temp before the injection pump ("IP"), but some (like those using nichrome), are cool with heating between injection pump and engine. My TDI has a relatively delicate IP relative to you MB owners, so I monitor twice before the IP and also perform all heating before it, too. To each their own, but your car's IP is its 'heart' if ever there was one... pre-IP heating battles IP arteriosclerosis (gunking and depoisiting of wvo 'plaques' within) as efficiently as we can at present.
Regarding 3-way solenoids, there're *many* pix on this forum and others detailing the reasoning... here's one, about halfway down. Might not be your specific rig but the theory is there;
http://greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=11844
(A is the "feed" solenoid", B is the "return one" :)
Respectfully, too, please see the "considerations" link in my sig. Even though biased towards the VW TDI, there's still much info that will lend well to your project.
Good luck!
-------------------------
'03 Jetta GL TDI (Stock? Yeah... *sure* it's stock! :)
Wingnut's HOW TO thread!
GC kit install considerations
Ditto to shmcquilkin above. 2 gauges are best, one in filter (so you know when to switch) and one in the line pre-IP (so you know when it is too hot). I use a Cyberdyne oil temp gauge (same as GC sells, only it says "oil temp" instead of the coolant symbol) and 2 senders wired thru a switch in my cabin so I can select which sender I am reading.
Can't emphasize heating enough, especially in cold. The TDIs are too efficient and don't generate a lot of excess heat. I run a vegtherm between GC filter and supply valve and have a block heater installed for pre-heating the system. In the winter, I insulate the crap out of all the fuel lines, valves and the filter and block off the radiator. I am about to beta-test a nichrome wire heater wrap for the filter that fits between the coolant coils and the filter. Just waiting for the current filter to clog up.
Injector line heaters may be useful but consider this: oil going thru the IP may not be hot enough and may put undo stress on the IP if you rely on the IL heaters to heat the oil and how hot is it getting in those lines? You'll never know.
Later,
-------------------------
sdeck
2003 Jetta TDI, GreaseCar kit, veg-therm std, TDIHeater, >20,000 veggie miles and counting!
"If you make it idiot proof, nature will make a better idiot"
June 7, 2007 - 5:47pm
#13
Quote:
Originally posted by: sdeck
Quote:
Originally posted by: shmcquilkin
Hi there,
Congrats on starting a fun project. Brief answers:
Two temp gauges, minimum, IMHO;
- One in the wvo filter's head (this one helps you to time *WHEN* to switch to wvo)
- One just prior to entering the injection pump (this one *CONFIRMS* wvo temp is 160F+ before hitting the engine: vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/Little%20Angel.pdf )
Yes, please consider both wvo filter heating and another auxillary wvo heating source (eg- Vegtherm, flat plate heat exchanger [FPHE], nichrome wire on the injector line [ala Fattywagon], etc.). Department of redundancy department. ;o)
I'd personally want the wvo to temp before the injection pump ("IP"), but some (like those using nichrome), are cool with heating between injection pump and engine. My TDI has a relatively delicate IP relative to you MB owners, so I monitor twice before the IP and also perform all heating before it, too. To each their own, but your car's IP is its 'heart' if ever there was one... pre-IP heating battles IP arteriosclerosis (gunking and depoisiting of wvo 'plaques' within) as efficiently as we can at present.
Regarding 3-way solenoids, there're *many* pix on this forum and others detailing the reasoning... here's one, about halfway down. Might not be your specific rig but the theory is there;
http://greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=11844
(A is the "feed" solenoid", B is the "return one" :)
Respectfully, too, please see the "considerations" link in my sig. Even though biased towards the VW TDI, there's still much info that will lend well to your project.
Good luck!
-------------------------
'03 Jetta GL TDI (Stock? Yeah... *sure* it's stock! :)
Wingnut's HOW TO thread!
GC kit install considerations
Ditto to shmcquilkin above. 2 gauges are best, one in filter (so you know when to switch) and one in the line pre-IP (so you know when it is too hot). I use a Cyberdyne oil temp gauge (same as GC sells, only it says "oil temp" instead of the coolant symbol) and 2 senders wired thru a switch in my cabin so I can select which sender I am reading.
Can't emphasize heating enough, especially in cold. The TDIs are too efficient and don't generate a lot of excess heat. I run a vegtherm between GC filter and supply valve and have a block heater installed for pre-heating the system. In the winter, I insulate the crap out of all the fuel lines, valves and the filter and block off the radiator. I am about to beta-test a nichrome wire heater wrap for the filter that fits between the coolant coils and the filter. Just waiting for the current filter to clog up.
Injector line heaters may be useful but consider this: oil going thru the IP may not be hot enough and may put undo stress on the IP if you rely on the IL heaters to heat the oil and how hot is it getting in those lines? You'll never know.
Later,
-------------------------
sdeck
2003 Jetta TDI, GreaseCar kit, veg-therm std, TDIHeater, >20,000 veggie miles and counting!
"If you make it idiot proof, nature will make a better idiot"
Thanks sdeck,
I think I actually solved my problems in getting the hose-in-hose to wor
June 7, 2007 - 5:51pm
#14
By the way, when I was stumped on how to "T" the hose in hose system, I looked at plans for what's called a "reverse flow wort chiller" ... it's used for home brewing, and is the same exact concept except it's bringing hot down to cold instead of cold to hot.
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brevity,
Some may say a vegtherm is a necessity while some may say it is any option. I think it has more to do with the individual application. In a cold winter environment I would say it is more of a necessity if you want the least amount complexity in start warming and driving. I believe that the coolant heated system is BEST for getting the WVO up to flowabilty, but not necessarily up to the right temps to hit the engine, especially after it tranverses the filter, which is in many cases heated by a copper coil coolant heated exchanger. For an extra $100 or so I think you'd be much better off in the winter WITH a vegtherm.
Good Luck!
Rif