Custom install ideas
May 4, 2005 - 5:55am
With filtering coming along and the BMW having proven itself a keeper it was time to start thinking about the car's grease install. I orginally wanted to build my own system but time has been short and I'm anxious to get greasy.
So I ordered the GreaseCar kit but there's a few mods I'm already planning on doing to it...
1: Tank temp light
I can't believe that it doesn't already come with one. I don't care what the temp is in the tank only that it's over ~170*F, I also don't want another gauge cluttering up my dash. The idea is simple, I'm planning on mounting an automotive cooling fan switch inside the tank. The switch I'm currently looking at is Bavarian Autosport part # 61 31 1 364 271 and is 82*C and costs ~$15. I'll use this one or one similar and thread the end into an aluminum bracket that mounts to the access panel on top of the tank, the switch itself will be located near the bottom by the spigot. The wires will be soldered to the switch and then coated with tool handle rubber dip stuff (available from Home Depot) or maybe epoxy resin. The bracket will have 2 bolts attaching it to the access panel, one 1/4" and one 3/8" (stainless with lock nuts and washers). The 1/4" bolt will be the grounding point for one of the wires with the switch wire attached on the inside and a ground wire attached on the outside. The 3/8" bolt will have a 1/8" hole drilled through its length, the other wire run through it and the extra space filled with epoxy. The other end of that wire will be the ground for a 12V green LED, a positive wire will be run to the other side of the LED from a switched ignition source. When the temp gets to the switches operation temp it will switch on the ground to the LED and the light will come on. I've used these switches and they're extrememly reliable. I know someone will chime in how these switches aren't meant to drive a load but since we're dealing with milliamps I think it will do fine.
2: I plan to run the coolant hoses and fuel lines under the car inside of a piece of 2" PVC tubing and fill it with "Great Stuff" foam insulation.
3: I'm not crazy about the looped system. I'm worried about trapped air and purging. I searched here but couldn't find anyone having problems with the system so I will try it but I'm going to run an extra fuel line in case I decide to add a return line and 6 way valve. In the even I leave it looped I'm sure I'll find another use for the extra hose (-:
Anybody else? Thoughts, comments, ideas?
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 4, 2005 - 7:04am
#2
Nice system but $150-$200 seems kinda high for whats basically a glow plug stuck in a metal pipe.
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 4, 2005 - 7:51am
#3
Although NEOTERIC might be considered a "competitor" I feel the need to speak up here. \
Please don't take it personally.
The Vegtherm is definately NOT a "glow plug stuck in a pipe".
Before you make such statments you should at least try to verify whether it is true or not. In this case it is NOT.
When you make a stament which is misleading it will inevitably mislead folks who come here later hoping to find valid and useful info on this forum.
I am sure you do not want to do that.
I would be happy to make some suggestions that regarding an "upgrade" to your GC kit installation....but I would prefer you e-mail me personally if you want them.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
May 4, 2005 - 8:03am
#4
Are you looking for 170 degrees in the tank? You won't see this except on very long drives in warm weather. All you want is warm oil, so it can flow into the heated hose and the heated filter. That's where it needs to be 170.
May 4, 2005 - 8:10am
#5
in tank i would say 100 is a good temp i am sure it gets hotter then that but 100 will work even for hydroginated oil we are concerned mostly with temp just before injection. the veg therm also is a very effective unit to upgrade the GC kit its self regulating and low current draw (for a heater) its also a no muss no fuss install.
May 4, 2005 - 8:36am
#6
Quote:
Originally posted by: danalinscott
Although NEOTERIC might be considered a "competitor" I feel the need to speak up here. \
Please don't take it personally.
The Vegtherm is definately NOT a "glow plug stuck in a pipe".
Before you make such statments you should at least try to verify whether it is true or not. In this case it is NOT.
When you make a stament which is misleading it will inevitably mislead folks who come here later hoping to find valid and useful info on this forum.
I am sure you do not want to do that.
I would be happy to make some suggestions that regarding an "upgrade" to your GC kit installation....but I would prefer you e-mail me personally if you want them.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
Maybe instead of telling me how you think I'm wrong you could tell me WHY I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when presented with facts but just being told I'm wrong does nothing but promote bickering.
You clearly know something about the veg-therm and I'd like to hear what I'm missing about this potentially useful device...
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 4, 2005 - 9:43am
#7
Donniej,
install the funky greasecar kit whiteboy!
so i see after all that you are not so sharp, you just buy one off the shelf sucker!
and you STILL cop an attitude to Dana, even though he's the only one trying to help you here.
I built MY OWN kit but i learned about the stuff Dana was doing first, at least i listened to the hippies that told me about the shit, you just to arrogant to listen to anyone
Roger
May 4, 2005 - 11:14am
#8
A lot of people sell heaters that are glowplugs in pipe.
The veggie therm is not one of them.
the veggie therm is a solid tube with a resistive element placed in line with the fuel path. there are no glow plugs involved.
You are correct that it is rather expensive for the amount of parts used, but so is replacing your injector due to incomplete cumbustion from cold VO.
I would recomend a temperature sensor by the injector pump. that is where the temp is critical.
-------------------------
Jeff Naylor
www.veggie-fuel.com
84 mercedes 300td single tank
May 4, 2005 - 12:53pm
#9
Black Grease,
How do you know what color anyone here is? I don't see pictures posted.
And why do you keep calling people white boy? Should we start calling you black boy, Black Grease?
-------------------------
" The Use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignifigant today.But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time " ~ Rudolph Diesel 1912
May 4, 2005 - 1:08pm
#10
I think the subject was on LED and tank temp. I think it is a good idea however Your sensor might be asking for to high of a temperature ( 82C?) I do not think you will see that in your tank, another idea ( if I may be so bold to suggest) is to have 2 LED's one for your tank and one for the veggie after it goes through all your heating fixtures ( HIH, Tank, Filter, vegtherm). The one in the tank might be set at 120F this is enough to ensure flow then the one prior to your IP set for 160F. Anyway something to think about?
-------------------------
KEEP ON GREASIN' 1997 F350 7.3L TD PS
1994 Chevy Suburban, 6.5 L TD
1982 VW Westy in the bullpen.
1973 Olds Delta 88 Convertable, AKA Land Yacht, 455 Rocket, King of the gas guzzlers.
May 4, 2005 - 2:09pm
#11
Yea... I thought 82*C was high but now I know for sure, I'll just have to take a look in Jegs or something for a lower temp one.
Everyone's input has me convinced that the temp sensor would definitely be better placed close to or in the IP and not the tank, I don't want more gauges/lights than absolutely necessary so I'll just learn to judge the tank by coolant temp I guess... after a little experimentation I guess you just get a feel for that anyway.
OK, so vegtherm is the shiznit but why is it better than say a large glow plug in the oil path? I believe everyone but would like to know why? Surface area? Hotter temp? The fact that it's just more expensize??
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 4, 2005 - 5:34pm
#12
Donnie,
Here's a point that no one's touched on yet... I too was considering PVC filled with great stuff. However, that would be woefully hard to service. Not that you SHOULD have to service the fuel line, but just imagine if you did have trouble? Hence I am going to see how standard pipe insulation held on with zip ties works first.
Even then I think I'd rather use pipe insulation inside of PVC. If you do go with Great Stuff, consider drilling holes every foot of PVC and injecting that way, rather than just through the ends.
I'll have to stop up and see how your coming... My filter system has gotten a lot simpler since you saw it.
Bill
-------------------------
100 Happy Meals to the Mile
May 4, 2005 - 6:46pm
#13
Yo Bill!
Thanks again for the drums, as you might have read in my other thread here I've been hard at work with them (-:
I plan on leaving a little extra hose at the ends just in case but you're right, re-running them with the Great Stuff will be impossible. I had planned on drilling holes *exactly* like you suggested.
Using normal insulation will likely collect water and promote wild life taking up residence... great stuff will seal all that out.
I'd defintely like to check out your filtration system. Mine shouldl be up soon and I should also have my greasecar kit by the time I'm back from vacation (5-14). We should plan to meet up some time shortly after that. I;m e-mailing you now (-:
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 5, 2005 - 5:50am
#14
i thought about the pvc idea and i also thought about maybe the pipe insulation, my concern wasnt only temp but i live on the side of a mountain and my little rabbit doesnt have much clearance. i ended up running them through the cab of my truck, i like it that way because i can reach down and feel how warm my lines are getting, haha. another thought i had was to run them through the unibody frame rails. it looks like this would be possible in a mercedes and newer vw. maybe try that on your bmw.
keep us posted.
-jared
-------------------------
Ride a Bike, When That Wont Work Then Drive a Veggie Car.
May 5, 2005 - 9:30am
#15
the unibody channels is an awsome idea but I'd be paranoid about it allowing water/road salt accumulation and promoting rust.
I'd like to run the hoses under the carpet but the carpet in the BMW is some heavy stuff and I could see it restricting flow, I'd also be worried about the buldge it would leave in the carpet... the BMW also has a nice thick steel wall between the rear seats and the trunk making hoses/wiring tough to run /-:
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 5, 2005 - 9:44am
#16
a friend of mine had the idea of making a hardline heat exchanger out of stainless or copper and running that through the frame rails. but this idea was for a truck which would be a lot easier to install in the frame rails. you wouldnt get any more road salt accumulation than normal if you entered the rails from the top through the floor pan....
-jared
-------------------------
Ride a Bike, When That Wont Work Then Drive a Veggie Car.
May 5, 2005 - 9:43am
#17
"Maybe instead of telling me how you think I'm wrong you could tell me WHY I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when presented with facts but just being told I'm wrong does nothing but promote bickering.
Gee Donnie,
Like I said in the reply to your email yesterday about "cutting each other some slack" ...you are welcome to email me privately and I will answer them privately. But when you make a PUBLIC statement that is incorrect I feel obligated to correct it PUBLICLY.
It is that simple.
I don't care if you admit you are wrong.
I just don't want incorrect public info to remain un-corrected. It is too easily mistaken for valid info by newbies if it does.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
May 5, 2005 - 9:50am
#18
"I'd like to run the hoses under the carpet but the carpet in the BMW is some heavy stuff and I could see it restricting flow, I'd also be worried about the buldge it would leave in the carpet... "
Most BMWs have a thick foam carpt "underlayment" that channels can be cut through to lay the heated fuel lines in. No resriction..no bulging..some insulative value.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
May 6, 2005 - 2:37am
#19
Dana says
"I just don't want incorrect public info to remain un-corrected. It is too easily mistaken for valid info by newbies if it does. "
While we're pointing out info that may be invalid, it might be worth noting that there have been few, if any, controlled long-term trials (and zero repated, controlled trials) yielding favorable results from direct injection of 150-160 degree straight vegetable oil into diesel engines (even using pure, unused oil). Also, there have been many controlled trials suggesting that any use of oil at low temperature in direct injection engines is a prohibitively damaging process. In short, despite repeated research efforts by academics and amateurs over two decades, there is little indication that many of the veggie oil systems in use today are a good idea. This may come as a surprise to first-timers filled with confidence after reading about thousands of people who make such modifications to their expensive cars.
The VegTherm uses a resistive line element manufactured (not by Neoteric) without such a critical application in mind. Even if the device's oil output temperature were *not* somewhat dependent on uncontrolled factors like rate of fuel propagation, input fuel temperature, and the specific heat of each oil, it is still highly uncertain that injecting oil under 160 degrees (or under 190 degrees, for that matter) is anything but an idea ranging from inadvisable to ill-advisable.
Having said that, injecting hotter oil is certainly better than colder oil, at least up to the temperature of the injection pump.
May 6, 2005 - 3:05am
#20
I'd like to reiterate that compared to what some people are doing now, the Neoteric VegTherm heater is a great idea . I think in my trying to point out how the whole idea of marginally-heated SVO may be a bad one, the VegTherm heater became caught in the crossfire. VegTherm is a better idea than most, certainly.
May 6, 2005 - 4:27am
#21
Hi SmalllVO,
Thank you for your well written post!
Could you please explain what you mean by...
"Having said that, injecting hotter oil is certainly better than colder oil, at least up to the temperature of the injection pump. "
In particular I'm not sure why injecting oil hotter than the IP would be bad. I'm an old hack when it comes to gas burners but I'm still new to diesels so I'm not sure why oil being hotter than the IP would matter until you get to a temp that could damamge somethng.
Also it's pretty clear that you're done your homework on WVO as a fuel and that you have a very mediocre feeling about its mechanical longevity... could you please explain why?
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
May 6, 2005 - 8:02am
#22
I think he means you shouldn't inject oil hotter than is recommended for the injection pump. I remember a post in which someone said they asked the manufacturer and the highest temperature they suggested was about 220 degrees (If I remember correctly).
-------------------------
"The Use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignifigant today. But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time." ~ Rudolph Diesel 1912
May 6, 2005 - 8:17am
#23
I was involved in a discussion in another forum about the application of too much heat to the VO. After finishing up my Golf's home-grown installation, I was seeing temperatures of grease ranging from 150-210*F and posed the question "How much heat is too much".
Apparently putting fuel into the IP heated significantly above 150*F is not recommended. The IP will soak up some of the heat and transfer it to the engine block as well as vent it to passing air - but overheating it too much may damage internal tolerances and shorten it's lifespan.
I've read how the recommended temperature range is between 140-176*F. Most of our grease burning systems don't monitor the fuel temperatures that well - there is a large range of temperatures based on engine speed and the accompanying coolant flow rates, fuel consumption rate (which dictates time for heat exchange) and air flow under the hood at speed and idling. I'm able to closely observe my temperatures and can influence them a little based on whether I loop or not (controlled by a separate solenoid valve). I find driving at 70+mph runs cooler grease than idling - where the heat builds up.
What are you seeing for grease temperatures during operation? I doubt it is consistent due to the many variables. I've plumbed my system so the coolant flow in the heat exchanger can be adjusted (under the hood) and I can set it for the bump and grind of commuter traffic, open highway or a reasonable blend.
May 6, 2005 - 9:55am
#24
Quote:
Originally posted by: Donniej
Hi SmalllVO,
Thank you for your well written post!
Could you please explain what you mean by...
"Having said that, injecting hotter oil is certainly better than colder oil, at least up to the temperature of the injection pump. "
In particular I'm not sure why injecting oil hotter than the IP would be bad. I'm an old hack when it comes to gas burners but I'm still new to diesels so I'm not sure why oil being hotter than the IP would matter until you get to a temp that could damamge somethng.
Also it's pretty clear that you're done your homework on WVO as a fuel and that you have a very mediocre feeling about its mechanical longevity... could you please explain why?
-------------------------
Her
"Do I smell McDonalds?"
Me
"No, that's my Bimmer"...
Her
"Will it make me fat?"
Me
"You're already fat"
You hit the nail on the head: I meant that, heating up to the temperature of the injection pump certainly is not detrimental to the IP, heating somewhat above the IP temp. *probably* is not detrimental to the IP, and heating "too far" above the IP temp. would certainly be detrimental to the IP.
We want to heat veggie oil as much as possible, but not so much that it harms the IP. As for why hot oil might damage the IP, I think this *could* happen by any number of means which you can imagine and guess at as well as me. I have heard no specific information, only vague allusions to "low tollerances." The question, of course, is how hot is too hot. I'm not sure whether "too hot" even lies in our neighborhood. It may turn out to be >300 degrees for some or all IP's, ie. outside of the range in which anybody would consider heating their oil.
But as for a real answer to that question (which could certainly be different pump to pump), I have no more input than the last two posters. I've heard people surmise that anything over 170 would be damaging, and I've also heard of people confident enough to run at 215. And I've also heard of people pumping waste oil into their single-tank diesels directly from a chinese food dumpster. I have seen no thorough investigation of the IP temp. issue, though I would personally like to: I plan to run quite hot oil (>190 degree) in a single-cylinder veggie conversion this summer. I DO NOT recommend this, nor do I recommend against it - I have seen no reliable information point either way. My engine is stationary, and the injection pump would cost under 100 bucks to replace, so I don't have much to lose.
In fact, the first information supposedly from a manufacturer comes two posts above this one - I'd love to hear more about that 220 quote, where it's from, what pump it was referring to.
As for doing my homework, I have read quite a bit here, surveyed some journals and literature surveys, and talked to bio-fuel researchers here at the University of Illinois (there are many, but few working on SVO). But I would not consider myself well-read or in this field by any means. All I have been able to conclude so far is that there seem to be many, many barriers to the efficient use of SVO as a fuel in direct injection engines, and that most people making these modifications seem to simply ignore those barriers. I admire their willingness to experiment with such expensive equipment, but I question the logic of running uncontrolled tests, and I fear that many people are under the impression that converting DI enginess to veggie oil is advisable as a cost/energy/environment-saving measure. From what I have read, I would have to guess that for most people it is probably not any of those. The profitability in each of those categories hinges even in the best-case-scenario on small margins, and it is not at all clear to me that currently popular (low temperature oil directly injected) SVO mods are anything but wasteful of time, money, and natural resources. They sure are cool though!
May 6, 2005 - 10:48am
#25
Well stated! I figure I'm making a ~$4k bet on this (rough cost of engine repair on a TDI) if I do a lot of the work myself. If I get 100k miles on the engine instead of 200k, I think I can save enough on fuel to make it worth while. 1000 miles=25 gallons=~$70. I need to get at least 60k miles in order to make it worthwhile. I'll pad the deck in my favor (excessive filtering, heat monitoring, etc), but I'm bound and determined to give it a try. I enjoy NOT paying for diesel, NOT sending my money overseas for the crude and being part of the experiment that could easily be the future of our transportation system.
May 7, 2005 - 7:32am
#26
"One last comment.
While high MPG vehicles are not likely to repay the cost of VO conversion in saved fuel costs...low MPG ones easily do."
-Dana
It's getting easier with the current price of fuel. I figure my break even point occurs ~60k grease miles. If the price of fuel doubles, that distance is cut in half. For your reason, I wouldn't suggest putting a new car on grease - but a lightly used one costs 1/2 to get into and 60k miles isn't that far to hit break even.
May 7, 2005 - 3:52pm
#27
Quote:
Originally posted by: 81SD
"One last comment.
While high MPG vehicles are not likely to repay the cost of VO conversion in saved fuel costs...low MPG ones easily do."
-Dana
It's getting easier with the current price of fuel. I figure my break even point occurs ~60k grease miles. If the price of fuel doubles, that distance is cut in half. For your reason, I wouldn't suggest putting a new car on grease - but a lightly used one costs 1/2 to get into and 60k miles isn't that far to hit break even.
True enough...but a diesel pickup can easily hit the break even point at less than 6,000 miles. 60K will tank an average driver 4 years...6Kwill take about 5 months.
-------------------------
danalinscott@yahoo.com
May 7, 2005 - 9:35pm
#28
Definitely - the payoff in a hungry pickup would be much faster. We "above average" drivers have a fast payoff as well - even in a high MPG vehicle. I'm still logging a lot of miles a week! I'm planning out our Dodge's conversion right now, preparing to recoupe the cost of the entire vehicle in the near future! That'll be burning some grease in the very near future.
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You should also consider a veg therm electric heater right before IP the greasecar kit does a ok job of heating veg but there is not enough heat right before ip to get a constant temp of 160 especially not in the cold weather on a 30 degree day my veg never gets above 150 before ip and that reading is taken off the car computer somthing to consider when you do the install I know mercades are very durable but no need to chance things. With a electric heater just before ip if you have it set to turn on with ignition i wouldnt worry much about a temp light the electric heater will do a great job boosting the temp before injection just wait for water temp to get up there will make things slightly less complex.