A turnkey centrifuge for $200?????
May 8, 2008 - 9:49pm
#152
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
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51. New pics with the bearing added on photobucket. It appears the vibration remaining is a result of our test mounting (the rotor looks very true), so we are building a very solid integrated basin mount plate with should eliminate both basin flex as well as motor oscillation (opposite end of motor shaft). We should have the whole mounting/device assembled and ready to test next week. If all of the vibration is gone, we will be ready to test run with some WVO.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 9, 2008 - 1:20pm
#153
Again , great work . What do think is the maximum temperature oil the rotor ( spinning bowl ) can handle . - Thanks
-------------------------
1994 Ford F250 NA 7.3 - Homebuilt WVO conversion
May 9, 2008 - 8:54pm
#154
Quote:
Originally posted by: rkpatt
Again , great work . What do think is the maximum temperature oil the rotor ( spinning bowl ) can handle . - Thanks
-------------------------
1994 Ford F250 NA 7.3 - Homebuilt WVO conversion
Thank you, Sir. We are getting close and hope to close the deal soon. The machinist is up to his neck in client's projects and has thanked me for being the most patient of all of them; but I have no choice as I believe I've been fortunate enough to find the best - he is GOOD, and I'd rather wait and produce the best possible product than rush and regret it later. I'm delivering a 12"square X 1/2" thick aluminum plate tomorrow that will eventually become the base so hopefully next week we'll have a standalone device (instead of mounted to a table for testing which was permitting some of the vibration) which will give us a more realistic testing result.
As to your question, the UHMW we plan to use can withstand 120F, perhaps 150F. However, you shouldn't need much more than room temps for operational purposes. Higher temps may speed processing but shouldn't be necessary, thereby saving energy and effort and hassles. If we use aluminum (as a result of production issues with UHMW), of course much higher temps would be permissible.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 11, 2008 - 9:15am
#155
Wow, fantastic R&D. You are to be commended as is your machinist. Should you be able to make this happen at anything under $500 for a workable "turn key" SVO centrifuge unit you will have filled a major void in the community. I have yet to see a working "turn key" unit for under $1,000. I was very doubtful when I first started reading this thread about a unit for $200. Just couldn't see how it could be done at that price... at least not a quality unit.
Glad I found this thread and will be checking in on the progress. Please add me to the list of interested. I was about to order a $1,500 turn key unit..... think I'll wait and see how you come along. Hopefully you see a light at the end of the tunnel soon.
Thanks again for your time, energy, and money on this project. please pass the same on to your machinist.
May 11, 2008 - 2:02pm
#156
Bhlfla, could you give a generic rundown of how you would actually use the centrifuge? Below are a few examples of what I am trying to get at:
-Would you plumb it to a container of dirty oil, and then have is dischagre into a clean container, or would there be just one container?
-Do you need to be present when the thing shuts down to catch the water and gunk?
-Will you run this on a timer?
I hope you understand what I am getting at, just the logistics of operating this thing.
Thanks for all of the effort.
May 11, 2008 - 3:04pm
#157
svego, thank you so much for your encouraging and very enlightened post (and yes, the machinist REALLY is that good - anybody can learn to play the piano, but few have what it takes to become a master). When I originated this thread (and endeavor), I had envisioned utilizing used (and therefor hopefully INEXPENSIVE) electric motors, but just finding those proved an evasive goal nevermind the implied standardization difficulties for obtaining large production quantities. Although we have since adopted the inexpensive Harbor Freight motor (new and it is a good value), the rest of the device must be enhanced to ensure stability and integrity as the motor wasn't originally designed for vertical centrifuge use (it is sold as a horizontal pump). And that is actually a good thing as well, resulting in a stronger, more reliable machine. But it does add to the cost, as does the billet UHMW rotor. We started with welding aluminum bowls/lids (relatively inexpensive), but balancing proved an elusive and time consuming task, so now we've adopted the UHMW rotor albeit with a higher cost. Had everything 'gone our way' from the start with the original vision, a $200 unit would have been an arguably obtainable goal (hence the ?????? in the title). But I am a persistent optimist and these changes and enhancements ultimately will result in a better overall product. We are still determined and confident that we will meet, or at the very least be very close to, our goal of $400 cost, pending the results over the next couple weeks. Rest assured that the device will be compact, lightweight, simple, reliable and most importantly, inexpensive and effective. Not 'fancy' or elaborate, but practical and useful, like a good truck. Ideal for 'personal' use and capable of refining a large vehicle fuel tank's capacity within 24 hours, unattended. No mess, no fuss. Just feed it, fill your vehicle's tank and go. I will not be satisfied with anything less than a VERY desirable machine as I plan to own ten or more myself and I prefer my machines to work for me, not the other way around.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 11, 2008 - 3:06pm
#158
Quote:
Originally posted by: brp
Bhlfla, could you give a generic rundown of how you would actually use the centrifuge? Below are a few examples of what I am trying to get at:
-Would you plumb it to a container of dirty oil, and then have is dischagre into a clean container, or would there be just one container?
-Do you need to be present when the thing shuts down to catch the water and gunk?
-Will you run this on a timer?
I hope you understand what I am getting at, just the logistics of operating this thing.
Thanks for all of the effort.
brp, very pertinent questions and soon I will be posting detailed videos including operation and assembly, once the prototype has been completely tested. For now the short answers are as follows.
The device will be plumbed ready to accept a hose, such as PEX, common garden, or flexible tubing of your choice. There will be an optional 'overhead' stand available to support a source vessel (such as a 5 gallon bucket or even a 4.6 gallon cubie) or you may use your own method (ie, you could place the device under a 55 gallon drum). Supplying the source (dirty) oil is totally up to you, but the possibilities are numerous and we will have a simple, easy and inexpensive method as described above should you prefer. Likewise, the collection vessel is up to you. You may use a 55 gallon drum (simply mount the device on top of it) or simply place a 5 gallon bucket (or even a clean 4.6 gallon cubie) directly under it. Just be certain you have a large enough collection vessel so that it will not overfill causing a mess.
Yes, you will need to be present when the device is turned off as it will not come with a timer and can only be shut off manually (unless you add a timer). Running the device after the source vessel has emptied will cause no harm, perhaps a small 'waste' of electricity, so there is no 'detriment'. However, if you used a timer then perhaps some of the separated water would drain into the collection vessel if shutdown unattended. The rotor will be self-draining to facilitate ease of removal/cleaning which MAY allow SOME water to escape; most water will remain on the rotor's outside walls (with the particulate), but it depends on the oil sample and time left sitting motionless. My advice would be to allow the rotor to spin until you are able to manually shut it off. Once the source supply has exhausted (no more clean oil is output), replace the collection vessel with a 'catch' vessel (perhaps a quart jar) to accumulate the remaining oil and turn the power off. The 'captured' remaining oil may then be recycled to the source vessel for the next batch run.
Hopefully this provides an operational picture until detailed videos are available (soon).
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 11, 2008 - 10:43pm
#159
Hi - I've come across you're thread and have read it through - top to bottom. I'm interested in the centrifuge - please mark me down. Thanks.
May 12, 2008 - 3:21am
#160
When everything is said and done, my suggestion would be this...collect some WVO into a 55 gallon drum, run a test bach throught the centrifuge & have a sample of it analyzed for the actual micron rating, as well as for emulsified or suspended water.
For a long time now, I've been reading a lot threads regarding the effectiveness between the Diesel Craft & Simple Centrifuge. The problem with the Diesel Craft is that it takes several passes to get the WVO down to 1-micron & dewater, where as with the Simple Centrifuge, no one has bothered to test it definitively, or have yet to report any substantial results. In one thread, I was met with the respone that, " A one pass filtration system down to 1-micron plus dewatering does not exist".
Without any factual data with regards to the results, this in itself will always feed into the opinion of nay-sayers, whom will simply state that the one pass, 1-micron goal plus dewatering is simply hype. Put it simply, you must remove all doubt.
As a selling point to all and to shut down the pessimism of every potential nay-sayer, I would also suggest that you video tape the process of sending your newly processed oil from the centrifuge to an independent lab (e.g. at a big college) & put the results on Youtube. That way you can demonstrate how the centrifuge works, while substantiating the overall intended goal from the lab.
May 12, 2008 - 10:35am
#161
Please mark me down as interested in one. Thanks.
Ken
May 12, 2008 - 12:02pm
#162
I am also interested in this, if it works as advertised. Please add me to the list. Thanks!
May 12, 2008 - 11:46am
#163
Quote:
Originally posted by: Davo53209
When everything is said and done, my suggestion would be this...collect some WVO into a 55 gallon drum, run a test bach throught the centrifuge & have a sample of it analyzed for the actual micron rating, as well as for emulsified or suspended water.
For a long time now, I've reading a lot threads regarding the effectiveness between the Diesel Craft & Simple Centrifuge. The problem with the Diesel Craft is that it takes several passes to get the WVO down to 1-micron & dewater, where as with the Simple Centrifuge, no one has bothered to test it definitively, or have yet to report any substantial results. In one thread, I was met with the respone that, " A one pass filtration system down to 1-micron plus dewatering does not exist".
Without any factual data with regards to the results, this in itself will always feed into the opinion of nay-sayers, whom will simply state that the one pass, 1-micron goal plus dewatering is simply hype. Put it simply, you must remove all doubt.
As a selling point to all and to shut down the pessimism of every potential nay-sayer, I would also suggest that you video tape the process of sending your newly processed oil from the centrifuge to an independent lab (e.g. at a big college) & put the results on Youtube. That way you can demonstrate how the centrifuge works, while substantiating the overall intended goal from the lab.
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
grindMARC new2greas Rif JimNorman bodycounter
FosilFool walter2 seadog brp VeggyPig
MISJeff praycha 5cylturbojeep marshall2u Hathy2
Pedrokep Abreojos syscokid(X2) DURAMAXLB7 jm686
wrapreynolds salty Pacifico xeus(X2) Pyrate(X2)
lonola Drippy jerrymaki Graplr cestes
Gadget111 smid87 dieselonly BobbyPollard TomatoBug
dieselbouy Nick mrbeavin yeshua73 Davo53209
mantajohan bkfran69 dcwier1 svego NEboy
kb2tha
54 now. Davo53209, some good suggestions, and yes I do plan to produce a general video to introduce the device and show how it is used and what it can do. I have put a lot of time and effort into this project and that includes an appropriate testing plan. I already contacted Blackstone Labs (I use them for my UOA) a couple months ago regarding testing parameters for WVO. I plan to send several samples, including good "raw" oil (after heat settling), bad "raw" oil (the bottom dwelling "leftovers" from heat settling), processed oil at 2 gallons/hour (from both good and bad raw oil), processed oil at 1 gallon/hour (from both good and bad raw oil). Later I plan to submit samples for WMO (waste motor oil) as well. I plan to own about ten of these myself and it would be a useless waste if they didn't do the job. All will be single pass, as there is no reason to recycle with a simple centrifuge; if the results aren't satisfactory, simply slow the rate (process longer - that's the reason for the 1 gallon/hour samples).
The videos I mentioned in earlier posts only referenced operations and assembly which will accompany the device when shipped. The demonstation video showing how it works, the testing process and samples (before/after) as well as the Lab reports will be available to the general public. And yes I do plan to put it on youtude.
Thanks for the suggestions, it shows you guys are on the ball.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 12, 2008 - 12:27pm
#164
Quote:
Originally posted by: biojetta
I am going to wait and see what you come up with. I know first hand how long it takes to design and build something with a machinist. So great job hanging in there!!
For those in a rush, here is an email I got from Industrial Centrifuges:
Our centrifuges use oil pressure to drive a turbine assembly at high speeds. Oil enters the turbine bowl under pressure and exists via 2 opposing jets. The force of the oil existing the jets causes the bowl to spin and gravity forces ALL the particles to the outside wall allowing clean oil to return to the tank, particles as small as 1/10th of a micron are removed. Unlike a regular filter element that removes solids by size, the centrifuge removes solids by weight therefore can remove the particles filter elements ignore.
This is the ultimate filtration system and the good news is ........ no filter elements to purchase, change or dispose of.
The most popular models for cleaning small batches of WVO is our model FF25LE and FT60LE.
The model FF25LE has a flow of 60 usg/hr. and a dirt holding capacity of 250 cc. For 55 gal. of WVO and based on 4 passes, it will take aprox. 4.0 hrs. to process.
The model FF60LE has a flow of 120 usg/hr and a dirt holding capacity of 600 cc. For 55 gal. of WVO and based on 4 passes, it will take aprox. 2.0 hrs. to process.
Depending on the amount of debris in the oil, we recommend all the oil passes through the centrifuge at least twice.
Pricing:
Model FF25LE $185.00
Model FF60LE $215.00
Funds: US Dlrs
Delivery: Stock
Shipping: FF25LE $10.00 FF60LE $15.00
To order, please complete the attached electronic form and email or fax it to us or call 1-800-668-4835 to place your order.
For your convenience we accept Visa, Master Card, American Express and PayPal.
If you have any questions, please contact us.
Regards
David
Industrial Diesel Products Inc.
Toronto, ON. Canada.
Tel: 905-362-0423 Toll Free 1-800-668-4835
Fax: 905-362-5015 Toll Free 1-800-668-7450
http://www.dieselproducts.com
-------------------------
Fly on Fry
I believe you will still need a gear pump with a relief value that produces 60 psi to 90 psi to pump the WVO to their FilterFuge.
May 12, 2008 - 1:49pm
#165
I would be interested too.
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1996 VW Passat TDI Greasecar conversion 2006
May 13, 2008 - 1:30am
#166
I'm in, this is so cool to see the progress over time!
May 13, 2008 - 1:23am
#167
Everything that you say that you'er going to do, is more than I could ever ask for. As I've stated before, there are similar sites with some well respected individuals within the WVO/grease car community (i.e. whom I will remain nameless) who are currently aware of your endevor, that are already trying to write you off.
Granted, they have much technical knowledge & experience to win the hearts & minds of the community; but also, their influence has the potential to stiffle any new potential breakthroughs...and most importantly, progress.
Without keeping an open mind, they will instead convince the majority to take their "opinions" as facts, while attempting to snub those who defy them. This is why I look forward to the results, because facts and stats will always trump someone else's opinion.
May 13, 2008 - 5:00pm
#168
blhfla,
Thanks for all your hard work. I really appreciate it. I'm envious (I think alot of us on here are closet engineers). Can't wait to check your photo bucket every day along with this forum for updates. Thanks for all the communication also. If you need to set up your own site, I'd be happy to host for you for nothing. Let me know.
-------------------------
1999 E300TD With Greasecar Kit
May 16, 2008 - 6:06pm
#169
I've got to stop checking this thread every hour. ;)
May 17, 2008 - 12:24am
#170
Quote:
Originally posted by: svego
I've got to stop checking this thread every hour. ;)
Yes, you do. I REALLY do appreciate your enthusiasm (and trust me I share it with you), but I can only update everyday at best; but what the heck, keep checking anyway!! It is a harmless addiction, right? Afterall, we are really progressing exponentially now and getting closer everyday. As a matter of fact, there are new photos and significant progress to report today.
http://s279.photobucket.com/albums/kk138/blhfla/
We have resolved the vibration issues to the point that the device is functional now, but we will work on further refinement by Monday. The rotor top disc needs to be thicker and "shorter"; this will reinforce the integrity and minimize the forces acting upward on the inner radius of the disc, which should minimize vibration. This will not have any affect on the processing throughput, only the maintenance interval, but that should be negligible (there still is PLENTY of volume for accumulation).
Next we will do a test with WVO and send the initial samples to Blackstone Labs for analysis. While we await the results we probably will build a second prototype (a "cleaned-up" version) and develop full production schematics. More thorough testing (and sampling) will be performed with the second "production" prototype and analysis done on the comprehensive samples. The introduction, assembly and operational videos will be produced. Once reports are received I will post them along with the introduction video. We should then be ready to take orders and start production. That's the plan, anyway. The estimated timetable for completion is month end (remember the "grain of salt").
One other note. We have reconsidered the lid design and 'optional' source vessel tray/support. Instead we plan to use PVC foam board (and a source vessel mounting "ring") which will allow us to integrate both. It will sit inside the basin permitting a more compact and stable design. Less components, less cost and much simpler as well as lightweight. More on that later.
OK, so 57 now.
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
grindMARC new2greas Rif JimNorman bodycounter
FosilFool walter2 seadog brp VeggyPig
MISJeff praycha 5cylturbojeep marshall2u Hathy2
Pedrokep Abreojos syscokid(X2) DURAMAXLB7 jm686
wrapreynolds salty Pacifico xeus(X2) Pyrate(X2)
lonola Drippy jerrymaki Graplr cestes
Gadget111 smid87 dieselonly BobbyPollard TomatoBug
dieselbouy Nick mrbeavin yeshua73 Davo53209
mantajohan bkfran69 dcwier1 svego NEboy
kb2tha geodad REguy campbell
I hope to have more to share Monday (or Tuesday).
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 17, 2008 - 6:48am
#171
May 17, 2008 - 11:54am
#172
just a question, what material is the rotor made of? and how durable is it? is it acid proof?
great job!!!!! can't wait to get my own ;)
May 17, 2008 - 12:23pm
#173
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
just a question, what material is the rotor made of? and how durable is it? is it acid proof?
great job!!!!! can't wait to get my own ;)
The rotor you see in the photobucket pictures is LDP (Low Density Polyethylene) and although it is durable enough for the assigned task and easily able to withstand acid as might be present in WVO or WMO, this is NOT the rotor we will be manufacturing. It was convenient for us to use for developing the prototype (proof of concept). The production rotor will be constructed of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene) which is even more corrosion and heat resistant.
Also, the opening in the center of the rotor top disc will be larger (the surface area of the disc will be decreased) to reduce the upward force it is subjected to by the spinning oil. This will also enhance cleaning access. The thickness of the disc will be increased as well to enhance rigidity to help counter the upward forces.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 17, 2008 - 1:53pm
#174
bhlfla - I have a couple of suggestions . Please email me .
-------------------------
1994 Ford F250 NA 7.3 - Homebuilt WVO conversion
May 20, 2008 - 2:05pm
#175
More progress; we are getting VERY close to the end of the journey. We widened the disc opening as planned and all vibration is now virtually gone; the only vibration left is a momentary "shudder" at a specific speed when decelerating after power is turned off. We have manually stopped the rotor to avoid reaching that RPM and "bypassing" the shudder and may consider incorporating a brake to enable this ability. The rotor spun absolutely fine and quietly and the motor performed well as we processed first water then oil contiguously for one hour each. We are quite pleased with the way things are turning out. The next step will be adding drain holes to the rotor bottom and fitting our source feed with a precise metering valve so we can run some accurate test samples, as outlined before (1 hour, 2 hour rates on "good" and "bad" oil), and send them to Blackstone Labs for analysis and results. If all goes well we might have them available by month end. Meanwhile we will put on the "finishing touches" and make final preparations for production, which I expect should occur by mid June. We're almost there.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 20, 2008 - 2:46pm
#176
Quote:
Originally posted by: blhfla
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
just a question, what material is the rotor made of? and how durable is it? is it acid proof?
great job!!!!! can't wait to get my own ;)
The rotor you see in the photobucket pictures is LDP (Low Density Polyethylene) and although it is durable enough for the assigned task and easily able to withstand acid as might be present in WVO or WMO, this is NOT the rotor we will be manufacturing. It was convenient for us to use for developing the prototype (proof of concept). The production rotor will be constructed of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene) which is even more corrosion and heat resistant.
Also, the opening in the center of the rotor top disc will be larger (the surface area of the disc will be decreased) to reduce the upward force it is subjected to by the spinning oil. This will also enhance cleaning access. The thickness of the disc will be increased as well to enhance rigidity to help counter the upward forces.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
UHMW polyethelene will deform with increased temperature. Make sure you test it well with hot oil, maybe up to 250F because you won't know what people will heat it up to. I hope you do not run into deformation and the resultant out of balance condition which will render it useless.
May 20, 2008 - 3:24pm
#177
Add another to the list of "I want".
May 20, 2008 - 3:08pm
#178
Quote:
Originally posted by: wvoheat
Quote:
Originally posted by: blhfla
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
just a question, what material is the rotor made of? and how durable is it? is it acid proof?
great job!!!!! can't wait to get my own ;)
The rotor you see in the photobucket pictures is LDP (Low Density Polyethylene) and although it is durable enough for the assigned task and easily able to withstand acid as might be present in WVO or WMO, this is NOT the rotor we will be manufacturing. It was convenient for us to use for developing the prototype (proof of concept). The production rotor will be constructed of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene) which is even more corrosion and heat resistant.
Also, the opening in the center of the rotor top disc will be larger (the surface area of the disc will be decreased) to reduce the upward force it is subjected to by the spinning oil. This will also enhance cleaning access. The thickness of the disc will be increased as well to enhance rigidity to help counter the upward forces.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
HDPE will deform with increased temperature. Make sure you test it well with hot oil, maybe up to 250F because you won't know what people will heat it up to. I hope you do not run into deformation and the resultant out of balance condition which will render it useless.
I have already posted that UHMW (we're not using LDP or HDPE) is the material we will be using for the rotor. According to McMaster-Carr, it may operate in the 201F-300F range, although local plastics wholesalers have advised that up to 150F is a better consideration, which is also what I have already posted as the highest recommended operating temperature. There is no reason to need higher temps than that; indeed 120F should be fine. I cannot control what people do with the centrifuge anymore than I can control what people decide to eat or clothes to wear. If I test it to 250F, what if someone decides to try 500F (as you said, "you won't know what people will heat it up to")? Should I stop there, or test even higher? But if you really want one that will withstand that much heat, I can produce one for you. But it will be more like $800 or $900 for production units, or over $1000 for a single unit if you are the only one interested.
The UHMW will withstand any NECESSARY added heat. Most people don't even heat their onboard kit filters much past 150F.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 20, 2008 - 5:08pm
#179
I'm doing the pee pee dance now.... hope I can hold it until June. :) LOL
Great news..... looking forward to the next update.
May 20, 2008 - 5:07pm
#180
Quote:
Originally posted by: blhfla
Quote:
Originally posted by: wvoheat
Quote:
Originally posted by: blhfla
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
just a question, what material is the rotor made of? and how durable is it? is it acid proof?
great job!!!!! can't wait to get my own ;)
The rotor you see in the photobucket pictures is LDP (Low Density Polyethylene) and although it is durable enough for the assigned task and easily able to withstand acid as might be present in WVO or WMO, this is NOT the rotor we will be manufacturing. It was convenient for us to use for developing the prototype (proof of concept). The production rotor will be constructed of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene) which is even more corrosion and heat resistant.
Also, the opening in the center of the rotor top disc will be larger (the surface area of the disc will be decreased) to reduce the upward force it is subjected to by the spinning oil. This will also enhance cleaning access. The thickness of the disc will be increased as well to enhance rigidity to help counter the upward forces.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
HDPE will deform with increased temperature. Make sure you test it well with hot oil, maybe up to 250F because you won't know what people will heat it up to. I hope you do not run into deformation and the resultant out of balance condition which will render it useless.
I have already posted that UHMW (we're not using LDP or HDPE) is the material we will be using for the rotor. According to McMaster-Carr, it may operate in the 201F-300F range, although local plastics wholesalers have advised that up to 150F is a better consideration, which is also what I have already posted as the highest recommended operating temperature. There is no reason to need higher temps than that; indeed 120F should be fine. I cannot control what people do with the centrifuge anymore than I can control what people decide to eat or clothes to wear. If I test it to 250F, what if someone decides to try 500F (as you said, "you won't know what people will heat it up to")? Should I stop there, or test even higher? But if you really want one that will withstand that much heat, I can produce one for you. But it will be more like $800 or $900 for production units, or over $1000 for a single unit if you are the only one interested.
The UHMW will withstand any NECESSARY added heat. Most people don't even heat their onboard kit filters much past 150F.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
Sorry, I edited my post to UHMW polyethelene. It is still a plastic, which means it can flow. It may be true and balanced when it comes off the lathe, but you cannot guaranty that it will stay true and balanced as time progresses. I applaud the work you have done so far but using plastic for a highly stressed item such as a centrifuge rotor is a bad idea IMHO. Cost should not be a factor when it comes to safety.
May 20, 2008 - 5:28pm
#181
Excerpted from wvoheat (no need to repeat the whole post - this thread is already VERY long):
"Sorry, I edited my post to UHMW polyethelene. It is still a plastic, which means it can flow. It may be true and balanced when it comes off the lathe, but you cannot guaranty that it will stay true and balanced as time progresses. I applaud the work you have done so far but using plastic for a highly stressed item such as a centrifuge rotor is a bad idea IMHO. Cost should not be a factor when it comes to safety."
Yes, a plastic can "flow", and so can aluminum (or nearly any other material) if the right temperature is applied. For our purposes (and recommended operating temperatures) the UHMW will not alter in structure. I am not a plastics expert, but I can refer you to those who are if you wish and you may argue with them over the accuracy of the information they provided. Certainly I will not pretend to know as much as those who make their life's work specializing in such materials. If they tell me UHMW will withstand 120F heat and 1300G lateral forces then that is my solution. We were able to balance the UHMW rotor just fine and have a rotor that spins beautifully and very quietly. The aluminum rotor vibrated severly as we were not able to properly balance it.
As far as "guarantying" the balance with the passage fo time, I can no more do that for aluminum than I can for UHMW. Can you take a saw to the UHMW and alter it out of balance? Sure, and I can take a hammer to the aluminum and do likewise. But using the centrifuge as intended will not result in deformation of the rotor.
However, as I stated before, if you feel that UHMW is not sufficient as rotor material for your use, we could try to accomodate you, perhaps build one using aluminum especially since cost is not a factor for you either from billet or perhaps components with substantial more investment in balancing process., Or you may purchase a complete unit from SimpleCentrifuge ($2200) last I knew - theirs is aluminum.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 21, 2008 - 9:39pm
#182
Please add me to the list. I have been patiently waiting a turnkey system from the SimpleCentrifuge folks but I had not idea it would be $2K - UG!
Thanks for your tireless efforts on this. I applaud your work.
May 22, 2008 - 1:40am
#183
Ive been forced to move very soon thanks to my "friend" who i live with
I might be without internet for a month or so
blhfla, if I don't answer to your e-mail etc, this is why
I am still very interested in the centrifuge ;)
keep up the great work
May 22, 2008 - 2:56pm
#184
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
Ive been forced to move very soon thanks to my "friend" who i live with
I might be without internet for a month or so
blhfla, if I don't answer to your e-mail etc, this is why
I am still very interested in the centrifuge ;)
keep up the great work
No problem, we're shooting for a mid June production start, so just be sure to check back by then. Tomorrow I will be running the test samples all day so I can get them to the lab. If we receive results by month end we may even start the production process June 1st.
59. So who will be #60?
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
grindMARC new2greas Rif JimNorman bodycounter
FosilFool walter2 seadog brp VeggyPig
MISJeff praycha 5cylturbojeep marshall2u Hathy2
Pedrokep Abreojos syscokid(X2) DURAMAXLB7 jm686
wrapreynolds salty Pacifico xeus(X2) Pyrate(X2)
lonola Drippy jerrymaki Graplr cestes
Gadget111 smid87 dieselonly BobbyPollard TomatoBug
dieselbouy Nick mrbeavin yeshua73 Davo53209
mantajohan bkfran69 dcwier1 svego NEboy
kb2tha geodad REguy campbell sweetjeep
FastCote
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
May 24, 2008 - 10:08am
#185
I would gladly be #60. Please add me to the list. Thanks!
-------------------------
1982 Mercedes 240D 4-Speed, 1998 Dodge 2500 Cummins 12-Valve used for pulling 2001 Nomad 25' Travel Trailer. Being Green can be VERY satisfying!
May 25, 2008 - 2:14am
#186
I have been following this thread with great interest and signed up just to let you know using UHMW as for rotor material...bad idea.
Very bad idea.
I work in development for a company known by every single person in this country and 9 out of 10 of us have products in our household my department has actually developed/designed the material for.
I am not going to go in to detail why I cannot recommend UHMW for rotor material since you have stated you actually ARE going to use it but I can tell you it is not going to go well.
At first and for a while yes but not for as long as you desire. Your buyers are not going to be happy if you stick with using UHMW.
I am leaving it by that for now.
Thank you for reading.
May 25, 2008 - 3:17pm
#187
Engineer:
Maybe you have a valid point, but it is so cloaked in anonymity and mystery that it simply can't be trusted. Okay, so you don't want to identify yourself or your company affiliation, and that might be understandable. But if you want to be taken seriously and not be taken as a nasty crackpot with a possibly devious and dishonest agenda, you really ought to offer a little more than innuendo to go on. If the material is as bad as you say it is, why don't you provide some useful web links to help you make your point. As it is now, I don't trust you. Either give me a reason to trust you, or just go away.
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It's the only planet we have, folks; treat it kindly.
May 25, 2008 - 4:14pm
#188
Quote:
Originally posted by: JimNorman
Engineer:
Maybe you have a valid point, but it is so cloaked in anonymity and mystery that it simply can't be trusted. Okay, so you don't want to identify yourself or your company affiliation, and that might be understandable. But if you want to be taken seriously and not be taken as a nasty crackpot with a possibly devious and dishonest agenda, you really ought to offer a little more than innuendo to go on. If the material is as bad as you say it is, why don't you provide some useful web links to help you make your point. As it is now, I don't trust you. Either give me a reason to trust you, or just go away.
-------------------------
It's the only planet we have, folks; treat it kindly.
JimNorman you brought up some valid points there but you also gotta understand that I have no (personal) interest in if this project is going to succeed - or not.
If it does that's fine but if not (and it won't with the material the guy stated he is going to use) there is no gain nor loss there for me - it really doesn't matter.
And hey I am not going to give you a reason to trust me because to me it doesn't matter what you (or others) spend their money on.
It's everybody's choice!
May 25, 2008 - 5:19pm
#189
Engineer,
Deflecting backing up your assertions by saying you have no personal interest in this projects success or not proves what? Sorry but I have to agree with JimNorman. You surely don't have to reveal your identity or who you work for to back up your claims.
Of course a private message to the developer explaining your concerns would seem more appropriate for someone who doesn't care what others spend their money on.
May 25, 2008 - 10:04pm
#190
OK I see where you are coming from and since I would hate seeing someone getting hurt I decided to go a little in to detail:
All I have are technical bulletins and material data sheets with lots of calculations and test results from who I work for and I cannot post nor email those.
They basically boil down to (and this is a very narrated version!) UHMW not being suitable for a Vegetable oil related centrifuge application.
Mechanical properties like tensile strength, elongation at break and thermal properties like max operating temperature and especially the coefficient of linear thermal expansion do not play well over an extended period of time like you would find in a vegetable oil related centrifuge.
In other words it WILL fall apart sooner or later, imagine that while spinning ~8000 RPM.
Going back to Aluminum would be not the cheapest but safest and longest lasting way to go.
Guess why no industrial manufacturer is using UHMW. Trust me they would IF UHMW would be suitable.
Hope this helps!
PS: Please stop doubting my credibility, I am not posting here to stir the pot, just want to help.
May 26, 2008 - 8:29am
#191
Engineer,
I really think you understand the reason people question credibility. Its the internet for crying out loud. You can't ask people on the internet to not question your credibility with the original vague post.
Thank you for bringing some of your concerns forward. Really hope you will stay in the conversation. I personally think the two examples you gave for concern were outside of the extremes that Bruce has set for this unit (1300 g lateral forces and 120F temps) and has been more than upfront about. If you can make an argument for failure under those conditions please do.
Debate and differences of opinions are not a bad thing at all.......
May 26, 2008 - 12:05pm
#192
Quote:
Originally posted by: blhfla
Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
Ive been forced to move very soon thanks to my "friend" who i live with
I might be without internet for a month or so
blhfla, if I don't answer to your e-mail etc, this is why
I am still very interested in the centrifuge ;)
keep up the great work
No problem, we're shooting for a mid June production start, so just be sure to check back by then. Tomorrow I will be running the test samples all day so I can get them to the lab. If we receive results by month end we may even start the production process June 1st.
59. So who will be #60?
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
grindMARC new2greas Rif JimNorman bodycounter
FosilFool walter2 seadog brp VeggyPig
MISJeff praycha 5cylturbojeep marshall2u Hathy2
Pedrokep Abreojos syscokid(X2) DURAMAXLB7 jm686
wrapreynolds salty Pacifico xeus(X2) Pyrate(X2)
lonola Drippy jerrymaki Graplr cestes
Gadget111 smid87 dieselonly BobbyPollard TomatoBug
dieselbouy Nick mrbeavin yeshua73 Davo53209
mantajohan bkfran69 dcwier1 svego NEboy
kb2tha geodad REguy campbell sweetjeep
FastCote
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
blhfla, I put my name on the list sometime back but do not see it on the list. Please put my name on the list for one. Thanks.
-------------------------
Just keep'n my money where it belongs.......MY WALLET!
May 26, 2008 - 11:24pm
#193
Quote:
Originally posted by: svego
Engineer,
I really think you understand the reason people question credibility. Its the internet for crying out loud. You can't ask people on the internet to not question your credibility with the original vague post.
Thank you for bringing some of your concerns forward. Really hope you will stay in the conversation. I personally think the two examples you gave for concern were outside of the extremes that Bruce has set for this unit (1300 g lateral forces and 120F temps) and has been more than upfront about. If you can make an argument for failure under those conditions please do.
Debate and differences of opinions are not a bad thing at all.......
OK has anybody looked @ this from a different perspective:
Let's just say I would have posted (simplified version):
"I am an Engineer @ XYZ and using UHMW is a great substitute for Aluminum"
I don't think anybody would have questioned that statement.
Instead I posted:
===
"All I have are technical bulletins and material data sheets with lots of calculations and test results from who I work for and I cannot post nor email those.
They basically boil down to (and this is a very narrated version!) UHMW not being suitable for a Vegetable oil related centrifuge application.
Mechanical properties like tensile strength, elongation at break and thermal properties like max operating temperature and especially the coefficient of linear thermal expansion do not play well over an extended period of time like you would find in a vegetable oil related centrifuge."
===
What I think is happening people are trying to feel good about something which is potentially hazardous to do (using UHMW instead of Aluminum.)
They do not want to acknowledge facts. (not using UHMW, see above why.)
And amazingly nobody replied to nor acknowledged why
...no industrial manufacturer is using UHMW. Trust me they would IF UHMW would be suitable.
No matter how much of my expertise I am posting, pretty much everybody who has looked in to centrifuges HAS TO ACKNOWLEDGE industrial manufacturers are using exclusively Aluminum.
There is none - not one - who is using UHMW in an Engine Oil and/or Vegetable oil related Centrifuge.
They want no potential lawsuit. Nor does the guy (blhfla) who has put so much work, effort and up-front funds in to his existing project.
blhfla please seriously re-think the use of UHMW.
Out and to bed, good night!
May 27, 2008 - 5:21am
#194
Engineer - Maybe you can suggest a practical alternative way to make a low cost aluminum rotor ( or manufacturing source) given Blhfla's budget and the manufacturing facilities available to him.
Based on what I have read elsewhere , I am convinced that Blhfla's choice of a rotor made of UHMW PE will OK under the operating conditions previously mentioned .
( another link - http://www.snapidle.com/uhmw_data.htm )
Fantastic work Bruce and Luis .
-------------------------
1994 Ford F250 NA 7.3 - Homebuilt WVO conversion
May 27, 2008 - 10:54am
#195
peaber if you can find a material data sheet displaying UHMW's properties for vegetable oil centrifuge specific operations that would be great.
The one you linked to only shows UHMW properties all by themselves and not in combination with only thermal expansion and tensile strength (like how they would apply in a vegetable oil centrifuge)
I can give you an example: Take the physical properties of Silicone. If you use that Silicone on glass in a fish tank it might work just fine. But if you use the same type silicone adding heat AND stress like happening when used as a valve cover gasket on an engine things change around drastically.
It all has to do with with the combination of an application's specific properties, not each one by itself.
rkpatt the most cost effective AND practical 'alternative way to make a low cost aluminum rotor (or manufacturing source)' would be - yes many of us don't like it - Asia.
One of our departments was going to get Aluminum Filter heads made here in the USA and was quoted $78/piece. They ended up making a sample from UHMW, sent it to somewhere in Hong Kong and got it duplicated from Aluminum for $18/piece.
This morning during breakfast we've been discussing the use of UHMW for a Vegetable oil centrifuge. My Co-workers expressed similar thoughts to mine.
It basically boils down to using UHMW would be OK for a while but there is an inherent risk of the material to 'just break' under continued influence of thermal expansion and centrifugal force.
May 27, 2008 - 9:05pm
#196
blhfla ChuckDubDubDub Greaseburger BrianMiller GuitarGerber
grindMARC new2greas Rif JimNorman bodycounter
FosilFool walter2 seadog brp VeggyPig
MISJeff praycha 5cylturbojeep marshall2u Hathy2
Pedrokep Abreojos syscokid(X2) DURAMAXLB7 jm686
wrapreynolds salty Pacifico xeus(X2) Pyrate(X2)
lonola Drippy jerrymaki Graplr cestes
Gadget111 smid87 dieselonly BobbyPollard TomatoBug
dieselbouy Nick mrbeavin yeshua73 Davo53209
mantajohan bkfran69 dcwier1 svego NEboy
kb2tha geodad REguy campbell sweetjeep
FastCote MikeT Hotwheelbill
Sorry 'bout that Hotwheelbill, thanks for correcting my mistake; you are now OFFICIALLY part of the list ;-) If anyone else should be on the list but isn't (because of my error), please enlighten me so that I may make amends.
Wow, a bit of activity on the thread lately. I trust everyone had a safe and 'MEMORABLE' holiday (thank you US servicemen/women - and your families - for your sacrifice, past and present); I checked my email after an extended 'break' and had some news to post when, interestingly enough, I saw the UHMW discussions at the end of this thread. It appears that some people still want to apply operational criteria OUTSIDE our designed parameters when considering rotor material. (Thank you svego, mantajohan, rkpratt, et al..... for already reiterating).
Now, for the [in this case very pertinent] news I have to post. An email I received over the long weekend was from a supplier in response to my question: "We are now ready to produce our production prototype utilizing the materials/design we plan to standardize on. The LDP satisfied our 'proof of concept' in our first prototype (as hoped) and UHMW will meet our production requirements. Please provide logistics (ordering requirements/lead times, pricing, etc.) as well as alternatives - I noticed your Polypropylene appears cheaper than UHMW yet PP has better thermal and strength (tensile and compressive) characteristics. Cost, as always, is a factor. I'm also interested in its milling characteristics. Thank you for your reply."
The reply produced some interesting scenarios. The Polypropylene (as we would be ordering it) would indeed be slightly cheaper than the UHMW, yet about 50% stronger and slightly more heat tolerant. This would make a better choice of material for the rotor, PENDING the milling characteristics. Consequently, we will be producing a PP rotor (please no jokes) to determine machining/production feasibility.
The other interesting scenario is that of all the plastics recommended, nylon is the most attractive, about four times as strong as UHMW and significantly more heat tolerant, yet it is not the most expensive (for instance, less than Acetal). This produces a potential alternative that may require all of your input. Based on price differences, we should be able to produce a nylon based rotor centrifuge for about $430-450. The question is, is it worth it to you? I know cost is a MAJOR consideration for many, so I perceive two scenarios: offering ALL centrifuges as either PP (or UHMW) based, or nylon based, pending a group decision based on price/characteristic considerations; or some centrifuges as PP (UHMW) based and some as nylon based with corresponding pricing structures.
So, as it stands now, UHMW is still our rotor material of choice based on design parameters, cost and machining characteristics. However, we will re-evaluate based on the PP experience (again, no jokes please), the cost should still be around $400 regardless.
In the meantime, I have two questions:
Do you anticipate needing heat tolerance to above 150F-180F?
Are you willing to pay $430-$450 for it (as well as 4 times the strength, which indeed may be more pertinent)?
Sorry for the lengthy post, I guess that's what happens when you try to get away for a while.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 230k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, VR6 5 lug 15" wheel conversion, VR6 clutch, .658 5th, R1 Concepts slotted/drilled rotors, 2500 watt sound, Pl
May 28, 2008 - 12:43am
#197
right now I will only centrifuge cold stuff and money is a issue at the moment also, so I want it cheap
BUT if it's only 30-50$ more to get one out of nylon that is sure worth the money, I think atleast ;)
ps. if the centrifuge is as good as you say (which i believe) you will probably get get more orders from my firends :)
two word iv'e never heard before: pertinent and reiterating
thanks to the internet, the dictionary did't know those words LOL
MY VOTE IS: I want the 4times stronger rotor
keep up the good work!!!! ;)
May 28, 2008 - 6:11am
#198
Ditto on the better rotor material.
I am also eager for an expedited production run. Any news on the oil analysis. Are you looking for some early adopters (beta testers)?
May 28, 2008 - 6:32am
#199
Engineer - Wouldn't the production setup costs for a relatively limited number of units of these ( vs the filter head example ) and the testing time (for QC./ safety) make this an impractical solution in this case ?
Engiineer wrote earlier -- snip-- " rkpatt the most cost effective AND practical 'alternative way to make a low cost aluminum rotor (or manufacturing source)' would be - yes many of us don't like it - Asia.
One of our departments was going to get Aluminum Filter heads made here in the USA and was quoted $78/piece. They ended up making a sample from UHMW, sent it to somewhere in Hong Kong and got it duplicated from Aluminum for $18/piece. "
May 28, 2008 - 6:39am
#200
The truth of the matter, is that lots of people heat their WVO to a temperature between 120-160 degrees F when using a centrifuge. That's because heated oils release the captured gunk quicker than with oil that is cold.
With both safety & reliability in mind, I would suggest going with a more conservative approach, whereby utilizing a material for the rotor that has the maxium heat tolerance for WVO, without breaking down the material within a given amount of time, due to either heat or stress.
If it's truely going to be a "Set-it & Forget it" centrifuge, than you must do everything possible to ensure the safety of the consumer along with having a reliable product that lasts for a substantial amout of time.
Let's not forget blhfla, your competitors will be out to get you & with that (i.e. as I've mentioned in an earlier post) there are already a few influential members within the WVO community who are doubting this endevor. Speaking for myself, I would rather pay the extra cash for the added piece of mind.
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Quote:
Originally posted by: mantajohan
mantajohan, I'll look into 220V motors, but using a step up tranformer might be a better option as we are trying to standardize on one motor
absolutly, as long as it fits into the electrisety from the wall without frying the motor i'm ok with it ;)
simplest solutions are mostly the best
I would never have thought of a simple transformer myself
Many 220V motors have a series/parallel patchable connection in the junction box. These can be set to parallel (110V). Some are not marked for this but can be changed over anyway. Is it worth a look?
Cabover
-------------------------
A little grease goes a long ways!