A turnkey centrifuge for $200?????
January 15, 2008 - 6:17pm
I have been pre-filtering through a nominal 10 micron gravity fed whole house water filter in my garage in tropical Florida successfully for over a year now (and have yet to clog my 5 micron onboard filter). However, the several recent cold fronts have shutdown my refinery in my unheated garage. So now I am considering using a centrifuge, not only to enable cold filtering but also for the improved performance (down to 1/10 micron). I researched www.simplecentrifuge.com but $500 for a rotor or $2200 for a turn key system for me is not justifiable for a personal use requirement and the relatively less expensive (but still several hundred dollars) www.dieselcraft.com for me is not an acceptable solution either because of problems/maintenance associated with pumps. So I obtained the rather clever motor driven spinner design (available from Bud Pitts) and contacted a resourceful local machinist to construct a modified prototype. The objectives are efficiency (low operating cost - pennies a day), durability (rugged and corrosion resistent), simplicity (no seals, pumps, or other maintenance/failure concerns), and price (less than $200). He says he would consider a production run if there was enough interest to make it worthwhile. The goal is to develop a turnkey solution that filters 2 or more gallons/hour to 1/10 micron even in cold weather that can easily fit in a closet sized space and operate 24X7 unattended with only a 5 minute "maintenance" cleaning after processing that will last indefinately and is easy to operate, transport and costs $200 or less.
Once the prototype is completed I will post pictures and a somewhat detailed specification/description.
My question NOW is how many people would consider purchasing a centrifuge that meets these criteria? This is kind of a "feeler" survey - after a while I will tally the list and if there is enough interest I will proceed with the machinist on requirements for a planned production run - "group buy" style.
Please reply to this thread if you would consider purchasing.
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85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 15, 2008 - 10:22pm
#2
i may be interested and know of others as well, I would like something that is in that price point that will filter both my oil and biodiesel down to 1 micron or below and even at a hiher gal pr hr rating would be even better.
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96 Vw Passat Tdi
Greasecar kit w/vegtherm and Fphe
Smog .205 nozzles,Mufflerectomy
32k + so far and running great
2000 Excursion running My B100:)
Homebrewing the good stuff in the Appleseed:) 50 gals per batch!!
January 15, 2008 - 10:50pm
#3
a centrifuge works best when your veggie is 100 to 125 degrees......................................................
so does your filtering system in your garage....
but then again i could use another $200.00 toy..let us know how it goes
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I use to be ForrestGump..My Forum, ,My BLOG,
January 15, 2008 - 11:26pm
#4
Quote:
Originally posted by: ChuckDubDubDub
I think it sounds mighty interesting. Would the motor be included, then??
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1982 Mercedes Benz 300D 10K Veg Miles
http://www.chuckwyatt.com/
That is still TBD. Right now we're just trying to get a feel for the interest level. The whole system sans the motor should be attainable for under $200; just add motor and your containers (buckets, barrels, whatever). Motors can be obtained locally and inexpensively (especially at a used appliance shop) but if a good number want them supplied (and are willing to pay for higher shipping - motors are heavy!!!) then we'd have to work that out. You should be able to get one (even new) for under $50 - 1/2 HP 110V 3250 RPM is ideal.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 15, 2008 - 11:42pm
#5
I think you would have them knocking at your door for a turnkey system even close to $200. However any successful centerfuging can not be done without some degree of heat.
January 15, 2008 - 11:35pm
#6
Quote:
Originally posted by: Greaseburger
i may be interested and know of others as well, I would like something that is in that price point that will filter both my oil and biodiesel down to 1 micron or below and even at a hiher gal pr hr rating would be even better.
-------------------------
96 Vw Passat Tdi
Greasecar kit w/vegtherm and Fphe
Smog .205 nozzles,Mufflerectomy
32k + so far and running great
2000 Excursion running My B100:)
Homebrewing the good stuff in the Appleseed:) 50 gals per batch!!
You should be able to filter any liquid, even used motor oil. Besides filtering down to 1/10 micron, the centrifuge will separate water as well. At 3450 RPM the centrifuge develops 1300G force. As Brian suggested, heating the oil will speed filtration/separation in a centrifuge as well as a filter system. You MIGHT get rates as high as 10 GPH on WVO under ideal conditions, but I would think 3-5 GPH is reasonable. The longer the oil is spun in the centrifuge, the finer it is filtered. Running the device at 6900 RPM (double "normal" speed) increases the force to about 5000G and increases filtering speed/throughput, but I definitely would NOT recommend it for safety reasons (I will NEVER do that myself).
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85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 15, 2008 - 11:56pm
#7
Of course *some* heat is needed - if the oil won't flow into the centrifuge it cannot be processed. But if it is liquid, it WILL segregate, even if cold, it will just take more time. Heating speeds up the process as thinner oil will give up solids easier. My filter system in my garage has oil in the canister, but it will not pass through the filter so there is no throughput. A centrifuge WILL give me usable processed oil under the same conditions, without additional heat, as in my case the oil still flows. This is the reason I am undertaking this project now.
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85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 16, 2008 - 3:43am
#8
I think the best test will be to see if it can truly separate out water. If you can sell a centerfuge that will seperate out even emulsifyed water then you have a product that greasers have been looking for for years. Even if it was not a low micron rateing for filtering if it could pull water out it would be very valuable. Not just to greasers but to anyone makeing bio-d as well.
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01 vw jetta TDI : RC II : VR6 Clutch
Vag-Com tool at home
Veg 04-06 now mixing into the HHO
Another good veg site
http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page6.html
January 16, 2008 - 6:27am
#9
Include me. At the very least I would like to see the blue prints.
Acquiring a washing machine or dryer motor and gearing it to spin at that RPM doesn't seem to be an issue. What I can't figure out is how deep to make the bowl and how to encase it so filtered oil being spun out is caught.
Let me know how this is going...
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Holyoak
holyoak@aye.net
"With 8 kids even the suburban can be to small!"
January 16, 2008 - 12:46pm
#10
I'm in!
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'81 300D - designing and building a one-tank system with onboard filtration
'98 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins TurboDiesel with Greasecar Kit, Co-Pilot
January 16, 2008 - 3:48pm
#11
Put me down for one. I'll take a Holy Grail too if it saves on shipping.
January 16, 2008 - 3:50pm
#12
I'm interested.
Blaise
January 16, 2008 - 4:51pm
#13
blhfla
ChuckDubDubDub
Greaseburger
BrianMiller
Holyoak
GuitarGerber
grindMARC
new2greas
So far that's 8. I've only included those that explicitly said at least 'interested', so if you have only answered rhetorically I didn't include you. Perhaps I should have made this more like a poll. Please say "YES" or be explicit if you want to be included.
Remember this is only a 'feeler' so far with no commitments as the details, design and plans aren't even finalized yet. I will be meeting with the machinist Friday to discuss what he thinks will work best re: materials, construction and cost. Once a prototype is produced I'll post pics and projected price/timeline targets.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 16, 2008 - 5:31pm
#14
Yes. Interested.
Rif
January 16, 2008 - 5:36pm
#15
YES, I'm interested.
Good luck with this project.
Jim Norman
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It's the only planet we have, folks; treat it kindly.
January 17, 2008 - 1:18pm
#16
Im interested too....... any idea what the footprint of this proposed system would be..... approximate... best guess???
Lee
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Novelty+Economy+Environment= NEE.....
I am a Knight that says NEE
__________________________________________
NoName - 2002 Jetta TDI - Greasecar setup - RC2 - Rocki Mod
January 17, 2008 - 5:10pm
#17
Quote:
Originally posted by: bodycounter
Im interested too....... any idea what the footprint of this proposed system would be..... approximate... best guess???
Lee
-------------------------
Novelty+Economy+Environment= NEE.....
I am a Knight that says NEE
__________________________________________
NoName - 2002 Jetta TDI - Greasecar setup - RC2 - Rocki Mod
Mr. NEE: About the size of a shrubbery, a nice one but not too expensive....
Seriously, something about the size of a dorm refrigerator, more or less, including the stand.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 17, 2008 - 9:00pm
#18
Ill take two... with a nice path down the middle, maybe a different size with a nice two layer effect....
Really that sounds awesome and i only would want one :)
Lee
-------------------------
Novelty+Economy+Environment= NEE.....
I am a Knight that says NEE
__________________________________________
NoName - 2002 Jetta TDI - Greasecar setup - RC2 - Rocki Mod
January 17, 2008 - 9:18pm
#19
Please, please, post pics of the prototype, asap. I would love to jump on the bandwagon.
January 17, 2008 - 9:20pm
#20
I'd like one and i'll ask my friend too.
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Hiking out on the weather rail of environmental partnerships.
January 18, 2008 - 2:07am
#21
blhfla
ChuckDubDubDub
Greaseburger
BrianMiller
Holyoak
GuitarGerber
grindMARC
new2greas
Rif
JimNorman
bodycounter
FosilFool
That's 12. I'll see the machinist tomorrow and see if he has any more ideas/changes. If not, we'll probably gather up materials next week for putting together a first prototype.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 18, 2008 - 8:38am
#22
yes please
January 18, 2008 - 9:17pm
#23
OK, 13 now.
I met with the machinist today and we reached some resolutions described below. I appreciate the great deal of time he has invested so far as he is running a business and giving a fair portion of his time to this project. We have already modified the original design (significantly) several times (which I purchased from Bud Pitts) in order to best achieve our goals of simplicity of manufacture and operation, high performance and efficiency, and of course low cost (of manufacture, shipping, and operation). With that in mind, please remember that dictates using off the shelf hardware where possible, materials that are easily obtainable and workable, and emphasis on function, not necessarily form. You can purchase a nice rotor machined from billet aluminum for $500 or a complete turnkey centrifuge with powder coat finish for $2200 if you wish - what we are aiming for is a complete system for around $300 (INCLUDING motor, see resolutions below - motors by themselves are $50 - if you can find that - to over $120) - so it may not be as pretty, but it should work just as well or hopefully better.
Our directives so far:
1. Materials will be stainless steel and PVC for availability, low cost, ease of manufacture and shipping, corrosion resistance and performance.
2. Motors will be included to ensure standardization. If not we would need to specify the motor to use in order to negate the need for adapters for different motors purchased individually. Also we should be able to take advantage of economies of scale purchasing motors "in bulk". The only disadvantage is shipping costs.
3. The motor will be single phase 110 VAC 1/3 hp (or more) 3450 rpm for simplicity, availability, low cost, high efficiency and performance (strength) and capable of continuous operation mounted vertically.
4. The rotor will be assembled (pieces welded) as machining from billet would cost about 3 times more and materials about 7 to 10 times more. It will be balanced just as well and plenty strong to withstand the 3450 RPM motor speed.
5. "Stand" will consist of three legs so there will be no leveling/"wobbling" issues. They will be detachable (bolt to receivers welded to the base) for ease of shipping and replacement (should different legs be desired or obtained locally).
Of course any of this is subject to change pending results of the first prototype. Monday I will be dropping off the initial materials to "dry run" the initial fitting and prepare equipment. After the critical components are fabricated and assembled we will evaluate the result to see if it still all makes sense. If so, we will proceed fitting a motor and testing. If not, well, we'll have to see what's next. This is a work in progress without a huge R&D department and equipment but also without the pricetag ;-)
I will of course keep you posted.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 18, 2008 - 11:15pm
#24
Would you consider making it 14? If so I'm in.
January 18, 2008 - 11:27pm
#25
If you can make it like described, or close, I would be in as well. 15
January 19, 2008 - 12:31am
#26
You can make it 16 this is just what I am lookin for. Cant wait to see pics.
January 19, 2008 - 8:06am
#27
January 19, 2008 - 10:50am
#28
No, it won't, please don't make assertions you don't know to be true. $300 includes the motor. If you want it sans motor fine, but you will be on your own regarding sourcing and fitting a motor and making it all work. It is going to be quite a chore to find motors for less than $100 (and one that will last too) but I hope to do so, especially if buying in bulk. If you still want it without motor it should be right around $200, if you do not "just say NO" and you are off the list.
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85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, 5 lug VR6 conversion, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 19, 2008 - 3:08pm
#29
I think for $100 more for a "standard" motor that has been tested and works, that seems better than $50 and some guesswork.
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1982 Mercedes Benz 300D 10K Veg Miles
http://www.chuckwyatt.com/
January 20, 2008 - 5:03pm
#30
Now that many of us have expressed our interest to purchase a turnkey centrifuge, how can we be kept up to date on the progess of your project.
If you are spending time and money on this how do we keep our end of the bargain if all goes well.
January 20, 2008 - 7:12pm
#31
Quote:
Originally posted by: seadog
Now that many of us have expressed our interest to purchase a turnkey centrifuge. How can we be kept up to date on the progess of your project.
If you are spending time and money on this how do we keep our end of the bargin if all goes well.
Well, first thank you for recognizing my efforts and expense, but really all I would ask from everyone is to wait until we have a working prototype and I provide photos as well as descriptions/instructions. Once we are ready to start a production run I will ask for a deposit (amount to be determined by the machinist to cover materials) from everyone still interested and production will begin. Once the machines are ready we will collect the balance and then pack/ship them.
I don't mind everything I'm putting into this project as I must do so regardless in order to get what I need. The only extra burden is to now produce something that is standardized and easily repeatable for ease of production as well as an easy to ship design (which I think is a good thing anyway). Also I will need to secure an inexpensive source for a quantity of motors.
As far as updates, tomorrow I will be dropping off a motor and materials to begin fitting and setting up production machinery to start the first prototype. After we have one (I would think by week's end) we will test and evaluate it to see if it satisfactorily meets our goals. Then I will publish photos and test results/analysis. In the meantime, I will keep everyone up to date in this thread as I have so far. Both the machinist and I will be progressing as our schedules permit as this project is secondary to our livelihood pursuits but I hope we should be ready to start production sometime next month.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, 5 lug VR6 conversion, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 22, 2008 - 9:40pm
#32
I'm very interested.
January 23, 2008 - 12:10pm
#33
Will the bowl be a one piece milled metal?
January 23, 2008 - 4:39pm
#34
Quote:
Originally posted by: chasinthesun
Will the bowl be a one piece milled metal?
No, it will be cheaper and easier (and faster) to assemble it. Most likely there will be a top disk welded to the bowl and then machined as required. We are starting with fairly thin gauge stainless steel for the bowl and probably 1/4 inch steel plate for the disk to enable machining a tight fit to the bowl, easing the welding burden somewhat. The bottom of the bowl will be reinforced with steel plate that will be machined as a shaft bracket welded to the bowl, providing more strength and eliminating the need for a shaft seal (that might eventually leak).
One other change is that most likely the legs will attach to a bracket that the motor mounts to that attaches to the basin. This shortens the leg length and more importantly removes the load of the mass of the motor from the basin. I'm sure there will be more design changes as there have already been at least a dozen before we've even picked up a tool, but I like where it is all going. This machinist came highly recommended and I understand why.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, 5 lug VR6 conversion, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 23, 2008 - 5:04pm
#35
sounds very excited. keep us posted.
rif
January 23, 2008 - 7:11pm
#36
I second the thanks.
January 24, 2008 - 12:39am
#37
Would it be improper for us to throw out any ideas we may have? Your the one investing the time an dinitial expense so I wouldn't want to step on any toes.
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Holyoak
holyoak@aye.net
"With 8 kids even the suburban can be to small!"
January 24, 2008 - 1:13am
#38
Quote:
Originally posted by: Holyoak
Would it be improper for us to throw out any ideas we may have? Your the one investing the time an dinitial expense so I wouldn't want to step on any toes.
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Holyoak
holyoak@aye.net
"With 8 kids even the suburban can be to small!"
Of course not. We've already made numerous changes to Bud's original design (which was already quite clever). I run my ideas (and any others) by Luis (the machinist) and he is very open minded yet also very judicious in turning theory into practice. We'll be happy to incorporate any ideas that contribute to the product meeting the specified goals, providing we may modify those ideas as well, as warranted.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, 5 lug VR6 conversion, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 24, 2008 - 7:59am
#39
I'm very interested !!!!!!!
Thanks for your support
January 24, 2008 - 1:18pm
#40
I heard of this through a greaser club here in SD. I created my profile to get in on it as well. Please count me in for one maybe two. Thanks
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me/89 Jeep Wrangler with Mercedes TD motor 2 tank conversion
wife 85 300SD soon to be converted
January 24, 2008 - 3:43pm
#41
Count me in.
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Marshall from NC
1993 Mercedes 300D
January 24, 2008 - 4:11pm
#42
I will take one.
January 24, 2008 - 9:49pm
#43
Im in if it works and is priced as you say
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97 VW Passat converted
January 24, 2008 - 11:25pm
#44
I will take one
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James W
January 25, 2008 - 5:59am
#45
I'll take two if this is real
Michael
January 25, 2008 - 1:41pm
#46
I would be very interested in purchasing a centrifuge for under $200 if the shipping costs are minimul to San Diego, CA
January 26, 2008 - 10:48am
#47
me too
January 26, 2008 - 12:58pm
#48
blhfla
ChuckDubDubDub
Greaseburger
BrianMiller
Holyoak
GuitarGerber
grindMARC
new2greas
Rif
JimNorman
bodycounter
FosilFool
walter2
seadog
brp
VeggyPig
BrianMiller
MISJeff
praycha
5cylturbojeep
marshall2u
Hathy2
Pedrokep
Abreojos
sysco kid X2
DURAMAXLB7
jm686
28 so far. If your name is here and you do not want one (based on our projected parameters) please let me know.
We still expect the device to be under $200, however the motor might add another $100 more or less, depending what we can get. The biggest obstacle will clearly be the motors, as there isn't much we can do about prices except to continue to try to find a solution. Even trying to locate just one used one locally is proving difficult, and there is plenty of industry here where I live. But I'm not giving up and if necessary we just buy new off the shelf and pay the price ($100-140 range), in which case a complete system ready to plug in and use is still in the low $300 range at worst. If anyone knows where motors can be obtained cheaper I'm listening.
Regarding shipping, the design is compact so shipping will be less as well. It should all fit in a 2 sq. ft. box weighing less than 50 lbs. (most of that being the motor), so I *think* it should still be close to and ***maybe*** still under $200 (~$300 range with motor) including economy shipping. REMEMBER, these are still just best estimates until we are further along, but we are optimistic and I think we have a very good shot at meeting our goals.
Regarding progress, I expect the construction of the rotor to begin next week. We've made a few more design improvements including integrating the "cup" (which eliminates the need for a shaft seal) into the shaft mount bracket, thereby effectively eliminating a component (the cup is now essentially a small inverted "lip" attached to the rotor shaft mount bracket instead of a large bowl surrounding the rotor). Less material, less mass, easier operation. Also silver solder will be used instead of welding for sealing components (welds will still be used where necessary for attaching). This will cut down costs and complexity and time of manufacture. At this point we've also eliminated all PVC - components will be stainless and mild steel (except the plexiglass lid) yet still light weight.
Soon I will post a VERY basic description of the components and how it works as well as some of the design considerations we employed.
-------------------------
85 MB 300D auto, 225k miles. Plantdrive kit @ 207.5k miles. SOLD
97 VW Passat TDI 5spd, 227k miles, Sprint520s, RC3, 5 lug VR6 conversion, Plantdrive kit @215k miles.
January 26, 2008 - 6:19pm
#49
blhfla,
Could you email me your email address....have a few questions for you.....
Thanks....
vr
Nelson (wrapreynolds@hotmail.com)
January 26, 2008 - 7:24pm
#50
I will buy one from you. Let me know when you need a deposit.
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95 Cummins 4x4 pushing 400k miles and running like new.
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I think it sounds mighty interesting. Would the motor be included, then??
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1982 Mercedes Benz 300D 10K Veg Miles
http://www.chuckwyatt.com/